Quote:
Quoting hal9g:

Quote:
OK, let's see if we can define the term "common".  5 or 6 in 2 million just doesn't get it for me.

What'd'ya think?

These are just the mammals who have exhibited homosexual behavior.  I can include the list of birds if this isn't enough for you.  I hope it is as my fingers are a little tired at the moment. 

African Buffalo, African Elephant, Agile Wallaby, Amazon River Dolphin, American Bison, Antelope, Asian Elephant, Asiatic Lion, Asiatic Mouflon, Atlantic Spotted Dolphin, Australian Sea Lion, Barasingha, Barbary Sheep, Beluga, Bharal, Bighorn Sheep, Black Bear, Blackbuck, Black-footed Rock Wallaby, Black-tailed Deer, Bonnet Macaque, Bonobo, Bottlenose Dolphin, Bowhead Whale, Brazilian Guinea Pig, Bridled Dolphin, Brown Bear, Brown Capuchin, Brown Long-eared Bat, Brown Rat, Buffalo, Caribou, Cat (domestic), Cattle (domestic), Cheetah, Collared Peccary, Commerson's Dolphin, Common Brushtail Possum, Common Chimpanzee, Common Dolphin, Common Marmoset, Common Pipistrelle, Common Raccoon, Common Tree Shrew, Cotton-top Tamarin, Crab-eating Macaque, Crested Black Macaque, Cui, Dall's Sheep, Daubenton's Bat, Dog (domestic), Doria's Tree Kangaroo, Dugong, Dwarf Cavy, Dwarf Mongoose, Eastern Cottontail Rabbit, Eastern Grey Kangaroo, Elk, Euro (a subspecies of wallaroo), European Bison, Fallow Deer, False Killer Whale, Fat-tailed Dunnart, Fin Whale, Fox, Gazelle, Gelada Baboon, Giraffe, Goat (Domestic), Golden Monkey, Gorilla,  Grant's Gazelle, Grey-headed Flying Fox, Grey Seal, Grey squirrel, Grey Whale, Grey Wolf, Grizzly Bear, Guinea Pig (Domestic), Hamadryas Baboon, Hamster (Domestic), Hanuman Langur, Harbor Porpoise, Harbor Seal, Himalayan Tahr, Hoary Marmot, Horse (domestic), Indian Fruit Bat, Indian Muntjac, Indian Rhinoceros, Japanese Macaque, Javelina, Kangaroo Rat, Killer Whale, Koala, Kob, Larga Seal, Least Chipmunk, Lechwe, Lesser Bushbaby, Lion, Lion-tailed Macaque, Lion Tamarin, Little Brown Bat, Livingstone's Fruit Bat, Long-eared Hedgehog, Long-footed Tree Shrew, Macaque, Markhor, Marten, Matschie's Tree Kangaroo, Moco, Mohol Galago, Moor Macaque, Moose, Mountain Goat, Mountain Tree Shrew, Mountain Zebra, Mouse (domestic), Moustached Tamarin, Mule Deer, Musk-ox, Natterer's Bat, New Zealand Sea Lion, Nilgiri Langur, Noctule, North American Porcupine, Northern Elephant Seal, Northern Fur Seal, Northern Quoll, Olympic Marmot, Orangutan, Orca, Pacific Striped Dolphin, Patas Monkey, Pere David's Deer, Pig (Domestic), Pig-tailed Macaque, Plains Zebra,  Polar Bear, Pretty-faced Wallaby, Proboscis Monkey, Pronghorn, Przewalski's Horse, Puku, Quokka, Rabbit, Raccoon Dog, Red Deer, Red Fox, Red Kangaroo, Red-necked Wallaby, Red Squirrel, Reeves's Muntjac, Reindeer, Rhesus Macaque, Right Whale, Rock Cavy, Rodrigues Fruit Bat, Roe Deer, Rufous Bettong, Rufous-naped Tamarin, Sea Otter, Serotine Bat, Sheep (Domestic), Siamang, Sika Deer, Slender Tree Shrew, Sooty Mangabey, Sperm Whale, Spinifex Hopping Mouse, Spinner Dolphin, Spotted Hyena, Spotted Seal, Squirrel Monkey, Striped Dolphin, Stuart's Marsupial Mouse, Stumptail Macaque, Swamp Deer, Swamp Wallaby, Takhi, Talapoin, Tammar Wallaby, Tasmanian Devil, Tasmanian Rat Kangaroo, Thinhorn Sheep, Thomson's Gazelle, Tiger, Tonkean Macaque, Tucuxi, Urial, Vampire Bat, Verreaux's Sifaka, Vervet, Vicuna, Walrus, Wapiti, Warthog, Waterbuck, Water Buffalo, Weeper Capuchin, Western Grey Kangaroo, West Indian Manatee, Whiptail Wallaby, White-faced Capuchin, White-fronted Capuchin, White-handed Gibbon, White-lipped Peccary, White-tailed Deer, Wild Cavy, Wild Goat, Wisent, Yellow-footed Rock Wallaby,
Yellow-toothed Cavy.

Quote:
Quoting hal9g:

Quote:
Quoting Lord Of The Sith:

Quote:
Quoting hal9g:

Quote:
For me, this issue is quite simple.  I believe that homosexual activity is both unnatural and immoral; and I am far from alone.

Having the 'state' issue a license sanctioning an activity which a great many people believe to be immoral is simply wrong.

Please show me any other license that the government issues which promotes an activity that is considered immoral by so many.  The 'state' should remain neutral.

And please don't start throwing the homophobe word around.  I do not hate nor fear any living person.  In fact my brother happens to be gay, and I love him none the less for it.  I do however, fear for his immortal soul!

I am just spit balling for fun Hal.  Many people find Pornography immoral and wrong, I am not one of them.  However, in AZ nude dancers and porn stars who wish to work must carry an adult entertainment license.  Tucson attempted to pass the same law for topless dancers but it was defeated.  This means the state of AZ is sanctioning pornography.

In your opinion.

The supreme court has ruled on the dancing issue and determined that it is  in fact not pornography.

I cannot speak to the porn stars issue.  I was unaware that they are "licensed".

I am not familiar with this case from any of my Constitutional Law classes can you please tell me where to find it.

Quote:

Surprise!

I will concede the point that homosexuality may be "common" in nature under the broadest possible definition of that term, since that discussion was doomed.

Given that, and the fact that you are arguing that because something is "common" in nature, therefore "natural", then it follows that it is not "unnatural" for humans as I originally posted.  Then you must believe that the following behaviors, which are also "common" in nature, and therefore "natural" for animals, must also be natural for humans in the same way homosexuality is natural for humans because it is "common" in nature:

1. Running around butt naked
2. Licking one's own genitals in public
3. Licking the genitals/butt of another member of your species in public
4. Defecating in public
5. Urinating in public
6. Eating the feces of another member of your species
7. Nursing one's offspring in public
7. Having sex in public (hetero or homosexual)
8. Stalking, pursuing, catching, killing and devouring prey without the use of tools and without cooking


Shall I go on?

Just because something is "natural" for an animal to engage in, does not mean that it is natural for humans to engage in it as well.  After all, we are capable of higher brain functions and not driven solely by our hormones.  It is one of many things that set us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom!

Quote:
So once again....I AM GAY.
Let the red arrows commence!

Quote:
So once again....I AM GAY.
Let the red arrows commence!

Quote:
Quoting hal9g:

Quote:

Surprise!

I will concede the point that homosexuality may be "common" in nature under the broadest possible definition of that term, since that discussion was doomed.

Given that, and the fact that you are arguing that because something is "common" in nature, therefore "natural", then it follows that it is not "unnatural" for humans as I originally posted.  Then you must believe that the following behaviors, which are also "common" in nature, and therefore "natural" for animals, must also be natural for humans in the same way homosexuality is natural for humans because it is "common" in nature:

1. Running around butt naked
2. Licking one's own genitals in public
3. Licking the genitals/butt of another member of your species in public
4. Defecating in public
5. Urinating in public
6. Eating the feces of another member of your species
7. Nursing one's offspring in public
7. Having sex in public (hetero or homosexual)
8. Stalking, pursuing, catching, killing and devouring prey without the use of tools and without cooking


Shall I go on?

Just because something is "natural" for an animal to engage in, does not mean that it is natural for humans to engage in it as well.  After all, we are capable of higher brain functions and not driven solely by our hormones.  It is one of many things that set us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom!

You are confusing 'natural behavior' with acceptable behavior'.  Just because something is 'natural' doesn't mean it is 'acceptable'.  Again, I was arguing your claim that homosexuality was 'unnatural'.  Whether or not it is acceptable is something completely different.  Nice of you to try and pervert what I was saying. 

Quote:
Quoting bbursiek:

Quote:
The notion that there is something improper with a legal system based on religous belief than with one based on secular beliefs is absurd. All laws are about imposing a system of beliefs on someone else. The reason we vote is so that the laws imposed reflect the will of the majority.

[...]

The issue is whether the proposed law itself is something you agree with or disagree with. Whether people are opposed to gay marriage for religious reasons or secular reasons (I have a friend who is very atheistic and politically liberal but opposes gay marriage) is not the issue.

[...]

Brian

Bolding in the above quote by me

I think you hit the nail on the head here, Brian.

All laws are founded on the system of beliefs of those creating these laws. Their sources for their legislature might be of all kinds of different origins, personal experience of what are good and bad things happening to human beings, faith, religion, an interest to protect people from ill-will of others, scientific studies and the like.

In order to reach a level of acceptance with the general public, you need to elaborate on the reasoning behind the laws so that those who do not share the knowledge behind the process of legislation can properly understand the context that lead to the law in question. If you fail to do so, legislature will ultimately be overturned in time by those more apt to support their POV to the general public. After all, in modern day democracay, it's the majority that decides what's best for all, by comparing different viewpoints and then making an educated decision.

At this point, there's a problem with discussing the subject at hand as long as reasoning stems from religious beliefs alone, as religion is a faith-based concept not shared by everyone. Due to the fact that it is not fact-based, it is very hard (close to impossible) to actually convince people not sharing the respective religious belief that the decision based on a millenium- or century-old scripture and its supposed meaning for today's everyday life of people is the only right one.

And this is where, in the discussion of gay sex marriage, those opposing the concept fail IMO:

I have yet to hear one secular reason for banning same sex marriages, even in this discussion I haven't read any.

Quote:
So once again....I AM GAY.
Let the red arrows commence!