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Invelos Forums->General: General Discussion |
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 Prop 8 (Locked) |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Pantheon: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
I do not believe (even given all the insults) that any post in this thread is deserving of one
Unless I'm mistaken isn't the point of the rating/arrow system to indicate when users have found statements in the forum to be offensive or upsetting?
I personally found much of what was stated in this thread to be offensive and upsetting. Therefore I am proud to say I used my entire negative quota in one go. And, quite frankly, they were all well deserved. Offensive, yes. Personal attacks, yes. Upsetting...well that all depends. Being upset because someone says something you don't agree with...no, I don't think so. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Not at all. No one would consider the above behaviors to be 'natural' for human beings. Really? Nobody? You might want to expand your horizons. Let's take a look at your list of things nobody would consider 'natural' for human beings. 1. Running around butt naked My kids, at one time or another, have done this. Many nudists do this. Many cultures, ones we call 'uncivilized' do this as well...my guess is it seems pretty natural to them.2. Licking one's own genitals in public I don't believe this is even physicaly possible for most people.3. Licking the genitals/butt of another member of your species in public You and I both know that people do this all the time. Have you never seen an adult film?4. Defecating in public I know of quite a few homeless people that do this. You claim to have been in the military. All the barracks I have been in...where there is a shared latrine...do not have doors on the stalls. I guess the military thinks it is natural.5. Urinating in public Have you never been to a sports arena? All of the ones I have been too have open trough or urinals without partitions.6. Eating the feces of another member of your species Yea, there are people that do this. Not my cup of tea, but I do know it happens.7. Nursing one's offspring in public Are you serious with this? There are so many cultures in the world where this is more than natural, it is acceptable.8. Having sex in public (hetero or homosexual) Again, you should know that this is done as well. Heck, I know of places where you can go to see it done.9. Stalking, pursuing, catching, killing and devouring prey without the use of tools and without cooking It is extreme, but there are tribes, hunters, members of the elite armed forces, etc. that do this as well.Quote:
It is natural for many fish (as well as numerous other species of) to eat their young. Are you going to tell me that this behavior in humans would be 'natural' but not 'acceptable'? Have you ever heard of the Donner Party? Can you say 'cannibalism'? I knew you could. Quote:
I repeat, just because a behavior occurs "commonly" in nature, does not mean it is a "natural" behavior for other species, especially humans. Let me try this again. You said, and I quote, "I believe that homosexual activity is both unnatural and immoral..." The word 'unnatural' means, not in accordance with or determined by nature; contrary to nature. Since homosexual activity is found in nature...meaning that it is not contrary to nature...it cannot, by definition, be 'unnatural'. The fact that you find it to be unacceptable, by your moral standards, does not change that fact. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
For me, the only question here is whether the State of California is within it's constitutional rights to restrict marriages in that state. Many laws exist without having any secular reason, or any valid reason at all. Based on the application of restrictions of all kinds in other areas of the law, I see no reason why the State cannot restrict marriage licenses if it so chooses. (Which in fact it already does in a number of ways; age, blood tests, current marriage, etc) The California Supreme Court would disagree with you. In fact, they already have. As I said before, they have already ruled that it is unconstitutional for the state to restrict marriages based on sexual preference. That is why this new proposition is an attempt to change the constitution. But, hey, don't let the facts get in the way here. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
I find it interesting that those who oppose Prop 8 claim that those that support it are "offensive", "unenlightened", "incapable of change", "bigoted", "stuck in the past", "shocking", "scary", "discriminatory", "uncivilized", "ridiculous", and of course the always apllicable "homophobic". I take exception to that post. While I don't agree with your opinion, I have never claimed that you...or any other Prop 8 supporter...are any of those things. If you want to take exception with what somebody said, call them out on it. Painting everybody with the same brush is, at best, disingenuous.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Regarding the list where you said that all of those things happen. I never said they did not happen. I said they were not "natural" for human beings to engage in. If they were they would be far more prevalent. The military barracks example and sports arena stuff is stupid. They are not in public. They are in bathrooms. A little different than standing in the street pissing on a fire hydrant. Such behavior is not only considered deviant, but it is illegal. Doing things in a studio in front of a camera crew and director again is not doing it in public in the middle of your front yard or the town square. I think you know exactly what I meant, but as usual, you like to play with words instead of addressing the actual issue. Again, you cite "extreme" cases. That does not make it "natural"". Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Let me try this again. You said, and I quote, "I believe that homosexual activity is both unnatural and immoral..." The word 'unnatural' means, not in accordance with or determined by nature; contrary to nature. Since homosexual activity is found in nature...meaning that it is not contrary to nature...it cannot, by definition, be 'unnatural'. The fact that you find it to be unacceptable, by your moral standards, does not change that fact.[/blockquote
That is a narrow definition of "unnatural". My use of word "unnatural" was in relation to human beings. Just because something is "natural" somewhere in the cosmos does not mean it is "natural" for human beings. And as 8Ball has stated, it is exceeding absurd to compare the behavior of human beings to that of animals.
Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
Have you ever heard of the Donner Party? Can you say 'cannibalism'? I knew you could.
Are you seriously trying to say that because of this incident that in your opinion, cannibalism is a natural human activity? It is not "unnatural"? Wow! | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,819 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Being upset because someone says something you don't agree with...no, I don't think so. That is not what I meant and you know it. Every red arrow I issued today was because I personally offended by the attitude of the post. Not because I was throwing a hissy fit because someone disagreed with my personal views. If you or anyone else makes a statement about my way of life that I find offensive then I will issue a negative. This is the very reason why I feel this sort of discussion is best left out of the forum. None of us really know the other members here. We should all bear in mind that different people find different things offensive and strive to avoid making statements that could offend. It's not that hard to try to be nice. Or, I guess it is for some people.  |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
For me, the only question here is whether the State of California is within it's constitutional rights to restrict marriages in that state. Many laws exist without having any secular reason, or any valid reason at all. Based on the application of restrictions of all kinds in other areas of the law, I see no reason why the State cannot restrict marriage licenses if it so chooses. (Which in fact it already does in a number of ways; age, blood tests, current marriage, etc)
The California Supreme Court would disagree with you. In fact, they already have. As I said before, they have already ruled that it is unconstitutional for the state to restrict marriages based on sexual preference. That is why this new proposition is an attempt to change the constitution. But, hey, don't let the facts get in the way here. What they ruled is that the state legislature cannot pass a law specifically restricting marriage between same sex partners as it violates the current State Constitution. It was very specific. An Amendment to the State Constitution would overrule the court decision. Eventually, this will wind up in the Supreme Court and it won't make the slightest difference what the California Supreme Court decides. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
I find it interesting that those who oppose Prop 8 claim that those that support it are "offensive", "unenlightened", "incapable of change", "bigoted", "stuck in the past", "shocking", "scary", "discriminatory", "uncivilized", "ridiculous", and of course the always apllicable "homophobic".
I take exception to that post. While I don't agree with your opinion, I have never claimed that you...or any other Prop 8 supporter...are any of those things. If you want to take exception with what somebody said, call them out on it. Painting everybody with the same brush is, at best, disingenuous. Feel free to take whatever exception you wish. I never said that you specifically said anything, did I? It's not my fault if you have a guilty conscience. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Pantheon: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Being upset because someone says something you don't agree with...no, I don't think so.
That is not what I meant and you know it.
Every red arrow I issued today was because I personally offended by the attitude of the post. Not because I was throwing a hissy fit because someone disagreed with my personal views.
If you or anyone else makes a statement about my way of life that I find offensive then I will issue a negative.
This is the very reason why I feel this sort of discussion is best left out of the forum. None of us really know the other members here.
We should all bear in mind that different people find different things offensive and strive to avoid making statements that could offend.
It's not that hard to try to be nice. Or, I guess it is for some people. When you are discussing these types of issues, unfortunately, offense can easily be taken where none is intended. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Regarding the list where you said that all of those things happen. I never said they did not happen. I said they were not "natural" for human beings to engage in. If they were they would be far more prevalent. The military barracks example and sports arena stuff is stupid. They are not in public. They are in bathrooms. Public - not in private. Call it stupid if you like, but when it is not done in private, it is done in public. Words, as you know, have meaning.  Quote:
A little different than standing in the street pissing on a fire hydrant. Such behavior is not only considered deviant, but it is illegal. Doing things in a studio in front of a camera crew and director again is not doing it in public in the middle of your front yard or the town square. Again, not in private means in public. As for standing in the street pissing on a fire hydrant...lots of homeless people do this. It might interest you to know that, in San Francisco, they had to close the fountain in front of the Federal Building because the homeless were using it as a toilet...out in public, for all to see. But you go ahead and pretend that this doesn't happen 'in public'. Quote:
I think you know exactly what I meant, but as usual, you like to play with words instead of addressing the actual issue. Again, you cite "extreme" cases. That does not make it "natural"". I do not know what you meant, I only know what you wrote. Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
That is a narrow definition of "unnatural". My use of word "unnatural" was in relation to human beings. Just because something is "natural" somewhere in the cosmos does not mean it is "natural" for human beings. And as 8Ball has stated, it is exceeding absurd to compare the behavior of human beings to that of animals. Then find me a different definition. Quote:
Are you seriously trying to say that because of this incident that in your opinion, cannibalism is a natural human activity? It is not "unnatural"? Wow! Did you fail ancient history or something? This was one example. There are many examples of cannibalism in the old world. Just because it is unacceptable behavior now, doesn't mean it isn't natural. Society simply evolved to a point where we felt it was the wrong thing to do. As I said, you are confusing what is acceptable with what is natural. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,819 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Quoting Pantheon:
Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Being upset because someone says something you don't agree with...no, I don't think so.
That is not what I meant and you know it.
Every red arrow I issued today was because I personally offended by the attitude of the post. Not because I was throwing a hissy fit because someone disagreed with my personal views.
If you or anyone else makes a statement about my way of life that I find offensive then I will issue a negative.
This is the very reason why I feel this sort of discussion is best left out of the forum. None of us really know the other members here.
We should all bear in mind that different people find different things offensive and strive to avoid making statements that could offend.
It's not that hard to try to be nice. Or, I guess it is for some people.
When you are discussing these types of issues, unfortunately, offense can easily be taken where none is intended. Simple solution: Don't discuss this sort of this in a forum centred on the collection of DVDs. It's an inappropriate forum for this discussion IMO. Take it somewhere where I won't have to read it; won't get offended and won't issue negatives. Everyone's happy. And to make a point - if this topic had been about something that does not directly affect me I would still feel the same way. I just don't see what there is to gain by perpetuating a discussion that is so obviously offending people. To continue simply adds insult to injury. |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 |  Posts: 374 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Pantheon: Quote:
Hal & Others
BTW Hal you still haven't addressed my point...were you BORN straight or did you choose that lifestyle? I would be really interesting to get an answer from you Hal. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
As I said, you are confusing what is acceptable with what is natural. No, I'm afraid you are just plain confused.  | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Feel free to take whatever exception you wish. I never said that you specifically said anything, did I? You said 'those that oppose prop 8'. Sorry, but that statement is all inclusive. You can pretend it isn't, and it might work on some people, but it won't work on me. Quote:
It's not my fault if you have a guilty conscience. I have no guilty concience. I think you are projecting. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
No, I'm afraid you are just plain confused. Ah, yes. The last resort. Can't attack the argument so we attack the person. Hypocritical, but not unexpected.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,819 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting sugarjoe: Quote:
Quoting Pantheon:
Quote:
Hal & Others
BTW Hal you still haven't addressed my point...were you BORN straight or did you choose that lifestyle?
I would be really interesting to get an answer from you Hal. An answer would achieve nothing. The views expressed in this forum will never be changed. It's a sad and simple fact. When it comes down to it I know who I am. I'm proud of who I am. I'm also not someone who would rather perpetuate a cycle of hatred than let others live their lives how they want to. I made my point. A truly straight person would NEVER even contemplate having sex with a member of their own gender. It would never cross their minds because they are straight. They were born that way. I, on the other hand, was born gay. I didn't wake up one day and think: I think I'll give being gay a try today....it might be fun to be persecuted and reviled for a while.To quote Jerry Herman, I am what I am. Live with it - I have to. |
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