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Prop 8 (Locked)
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorPantheon
Registered: March 14, 2007
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I obviously haven't expressed myself clearly enough.

It is not the discussion of Prop 8 that I object to. It is not even the fact that I think politics is better left out of this forum (general discussion section or not).

What I object to is words like: aberrant, sinful, abnormal and unnatural being thrown about as though it's ok to say that about me and my lifestyle. Of course I'm going to be personally offended by this sort of language.

I simply don't understand why a discussion on this subject can't be held without resorting to name-calling.

And for the benefit of bbursiek - I wasn't throwing a hissy fit. I was simply reacting to being attacked with the words I mention above.
Feel free to discuss this matter without the use of words such as these and I will not be offended.

I don't go around calling straight people names to make a point and I simply expect the same in return.

Isn't that 'do unto others' and 'love thy neighbour'??
 Last edited: by Pantheon
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Pantheon:
Quote:
I obviously haven't expressed myself clearly enough.

It is not the discussion of Prop 8 that I object to. It is not even the fact that I think politics is better left out of this forum (general discussion section or not).

What I object to is words like: aberrant, sinful, abnormal and unnatural being thrown about as though it's ok to say that about me and my lifestyle. Of course I'm going to be personally offended by this sort of language.

I simply don't understand why a discussion on this subject can't be held without resorting to name-calling.
(...)


If that was your objection, then you are correct, you weren't making yourself clear enough.  I can see how those words would be offensive.  They are derogatory remarks, aimed at a specific group, and could be seen as a violation of the forum rules.  In that context, I understand your requrest and withdraw my previous disagreement.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
 Last edited: by TheMadMartian
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorPantheon
Registered: March 14, 2007
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Quoting bbursiek:
Quote:
I'm quite sure Pantheon would not agree to tell an artist putting a crucifx in a jar of urine that he should not do so because he offended me.


I don't see how you can be quite sure of anything with regards to how I would react to this circumstance.
Have you asked me?

What I can tell you is this - I would not approve of said art, I would not go and see said art.

And, as you have so rightly said to me - if you don't like it then don't look at it.

Please do NOT assume to know how I would react - or whether I would support your position. You do not know me.

Having said that I have quickly scanned your posts in this thread and you seem to be the ONLY person who has not used the words I mentioned earlier.
On the contrary, your arguments are clear, intelligent and well composed. Others should follow the same example.

So, you see, I am NOT trying to stifle your right to express your opinions. I am merely ASKING that forum members do so without resorting to insults.

If you can manage to do it, then so can others.
 Last edited: by Pantheon
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorPantheon
Registered: March 14, 2007
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Quoting bbursiek:
Quote:
I'm sure you'd be "happy" if you succeeded in censoring the views you don't agree with.


Once again a personal slur. Once again - you do not know me. Once again, you missed the point of my complaints.
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantbbursiek
Registered: March 20, 2007
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Quote:
Simple solution: Don't discuss this sort of this in a forum centred on the collection of DVDs. It's an inappropriate forum for this discussion IMO.

Take it somewhere where I won't have to read it; won't get offended and won't issue negatives. Everyone's happy.

And to make a point - if this topic had been about something that does not directly affect me I would still feel the same way. I just don't see what there is to gain by perpetuating a discussion that is so obviously offending people.

To continue simply adds insult to injury.


Pantheon,

First of all thank you for a thoughtful reply. I took exception to the bolded comments in your post when I made the remarks about you being "happy"with censorship. I am glad to hear my concern was unfounded in that regard. As for the comment I made about the anti-Christian art I admit I was wrong to make an assumption about what your attitude would be on that issue. I am glad that you can see that such "art" would be offensive and would decline to support it.

Unfortunately there are many on both sides of this issue that seem to care little about offending others and some in fact revel in it. I agree that resorting to insults is not a good way to go about debating/discussing issues (particularly controversial ones). However I do think we need to make allowances for misundestandings and word choice and give people the benefit of the doubt about their intentions and their meaning. Obviously I should have done so for you.

Brian
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMithi
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting bbursiek:
Quote:
If people's sexuality is determined at birth and is so cut and dry then why do people like Anne Heche keep switching sides so to speak?

Because there is some called bisexuality.
This might possibly be enough to make some peoples head explode: all(1) human beings are to a certain degree bisexual. Anne Heche might be one of those individuals who simply don't care what sex the person she love has.


cya, Mithi

PS "all" or "many", there are different scientific doctrines running around
Mithi's little XSLT tinkering - the power of XML --- DVD-Profiler Mini-Wiki
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorPantheon
Registered: March 14, 2007
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Quoting bbursiek:
Quote:
However I do think we need to make allowances for misundestandings and word choice and give people the benefit of the doubt about their intentions and their meaning.


While I agree with you in principal, it is not always possible to practice.

There are members of this forum to whom I have explained my feelings on this subject and asked them, as a personal favour, to refrain from making insulting generalisations.

They have refused.

In these cases, these people do not deserve my patience and allowances. They deserve the red arrows they are issued with.

Also, just to reiterate: your posts did not resort to name calling; but were still supporting Prop8. Instead you argued intelligently and in a manner that was not offensive.
As far as I am concerned this is possible for all other members who instead chose to use words like 'aberrant' and 'sinful'.
To me the use of these words speaks volumes about intolerance and prejudice.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
Who is John Galt?
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Pantheon:
Quote:

To me the use of these words speaks volumes about intolerance and prejudice.


And to me, characterizing people in this manner because they express their belief systems, is tantamount to using the word racist.  It is inflammatory and meant for one purpose only and that is to marginalize their belief system and try to prevent them from expressing themselves.  It is no less intolerant than what you believe them to be.

Speaking for myself only, my statement that got both you and Unicus going started with these two words: "I believe....."

I am sorry, but you cannot argue with what I believe.  It is a fact that the things I stated after that were things that I believe.  If I had said, "It is a fact that...." then it would be left open for argument.

You are entitled to believe whatever you like.  You should afford others the same latitude in return, as long as their belief is not manifested in some intolerant or discriminatory behavior.
Hal
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorPantheon
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Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
as long as their belief is not manifested in some intolerant or discriminatory behavior.


And the use of words like: sinful, aberrant, abnormal and unnatural is not these things?

I'm sorry but the use of these words is precisely these things. Intolerant and discriminatory.

As I have stated - Brian managed to argue an intelligent point without the use of these words.  I don't know him; and as such, for all I know, he also thinks these words apply. He is entitled to that opinion - as are you Hal and anyone else.

My point is that there is no need to use these words in an open forum where you know (or have been told) that they cause offence.

Once again to reiterate - I don't care what your opinions are on Prop 8. I do care how you choose to express your feelings.

Why you and others couldn't simply have stated: I support Prop 8 based on my religious beliefs and left it at that I don't know. But no - you had to throw words like aberrant and abnormal around.

It is not necessary to insult people to make an intelligent point.

You and others in this thread have deeply offended me with the language you have used to express your opinion - NOT with your opinion itself.
What you actually think of me is so far from being important that I can't even describe it.

However, all members of this forum deserve to be treated with respect and I cannot see that in this thread. As long as you feel it is ok to use words like aberrant and sinful when talking about gay people then you will offend people.

It's more than enough to say you don't approve of the lifestyle. Or, that your religious beliefs don't allow you to condone the lifestyle. These are acceptable ways of expressing your views (at least to me) without being insulting.
They show me that your faith is strong (which I respect) and that your faith is also allowing you not to harm others with your words.
 Last edited: by Pantheon
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRico
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Registered: April 8, 2007
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Could it be your belief you expressed, that is viewed as intolerant or discriminatory? I remember the saying, 'If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all'

Rick
If I felt any better I'd be sick!
Envy is mental theft. If you covet another mans possessions, then you should be willing to take on his responsibilities, heartaches, and troubles, along with his money. D. Koontz
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
You are entitled to believe whatever you like.  You should afford others the same latitude in return, as long as their belief is not manifested in some intolerant or discriminatory behavior.


But, isn't that exactly what Prop 8...something you support...is doing?  It is manifesting one groups belief, that gay marriage is wrong, by creating legislation that is intolerant and discriminatory...or am I missing something here? 
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
Who is John Galt?
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EDIT

Retracting this post as it was an expression of my frustration directed at Rico unfairly.
Hal
 Last edited: by hal9g
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
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Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
You are entitled to believe whatever you like.  You should afford others the same latitude in return, as long as their belief is not manifested in some intolerant or discriminatory behavior.


But, isn't that exactly what Prop 8...something you support...is doing?  It is manifesting one groups belief, that gay marriage is wrong, by creating legislation that is intolerant and discriminatory...or am I missing something here? 


No (to your first question)
Hal
 Last edited: by hal9g
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantDr. Killpatient
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I guess the next question is: Is further discussion going to be beneficial or not?
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
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The only way that I can be absolutely certain not to offend or upset anyone's sensibilities, is to withdraw from this conversation, so that is what I am doing.
Hal
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantCalidain
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Wow, what a controversial argument in this thread.  I am sure I will hate myself for posting in this thread, but I feel both sides are arguing to no avail simply because belief systems are impossible to overcome.

This issue of "Gay Marriage" is controversial because to within most hardcore religious doctrine, homosexuality is a "sin".  Now you can make the argument that gays marrying doesn't hurt anyone else and argue that religion should have no say in this situation, but ultimately the sanctity of marriage is founded within religion doctrine; merely calling it a contract between 2 people is not 100% accurate.

This is where things get tricky.  Agnostics and atheists will argue that religious doctrine has no ground here and the religious right will argue marriage is an act before God etc...you will never reach common ground.

The other aspect of this argument that is a double edged sword is when someone who lives a gay lifestyle takes offense with those who openly say "homosexuality is sin in the eyes of God".  You can take offense all you want with this comment, but that is a strong belief within almost all religions and when it comes to discrimination vs. belief systems you cannot win; just look at abortion, an ever unsolvable issue if you ask me!!!

Belief systems are inherently impossible to overcome.  You can argue they are ignorant and intolerant but for those who are strong in their faith you will never sway their viewpoint.  Within those belief systems there is also little to zero lattitude.  Throughout our history as a race we have killed each other over religious doctrine and we see religion still in this modern day and age as a catalyst for death and murder and genocide.

No matter how much you plead for understanding and tolerance for "gay lifestyle" you will never win the acceptance of most religious groups.  I myself am a live and let live kind of person, but I can not say that at times I have not succumbed to stereotypes and bigotry.  Having said that I have many gay friends, it is their choice and I don't question it, but I have argued vehemotly that gay marriage will always be frowned upon as long the religious right is able to cast their votes within this country and to say they are wrong is to attempt to invalidate their beliefs as well and is equally intolerable in my opinion!!!
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