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NRA - Monumental Victory
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantpauls42
Reg: 31/01/2003
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting 8ballMax:
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Quoting pauls42:
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in the UK, people are arrested before they try and commit a murder if the authorities become aware. Thank goodness I don't live in America if its the job of the police to ride around in their cars eating buns until after someone has been killed.


So, in the UK, if I was overheard as saying "I could just Kill so-and-so", someone could inform the police and I would then be arrested for attempted murder or conspiracy to commit murder?


No.

But if you asked someone in the pub where you could buy a gun then the police would start interviewing you.

It's the attempt to carry out the deed.
Paul
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLord Of The Sith
Registered: March 17, 2007
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Quoting GSyren:
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Quoting bbursiek:
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There has always been another catefory - unlawful combatants - we are not inventing anything. They are not uniformed soldiers but are waging war against a nation in complete disregard for the rules of war.

Can you cite any international definition that says that there is such a category?

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Are you morally outraged about those victims or do you reserve your sympathy for the detainees only?

Now, that's another lynch mob argument. When someone protests that the prisoner's right are being violated they'll say "What about the victims rights?". It's a non-argument.

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The Geneva Conventions are a treay designed to set ground rules for war between signatories - it is not a suicide pact to disarm ourselves in a non-traditional conflict.


The Geneva Conventions apply, as you rightly state, when there is a state of war. When a state of war no longer exists, POWs are to be released. But correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, the United States is not officially at war. Therefore there is no "end", and thus saying that these people are treated according to the Geneva Convention (with very limited exceptions) is not true. The very fact that there is no limit to how long they can be detained is a very significant exception.


I am not sure about that.  Since September 11th it has been called, "The War on Terror" here in the US.  Have we declared war on any countries?  Yes Iraq.  Other than that terrorist fly no flag and wear no uniform, so thjere is no one country we can declare against.  But make no mistake, this IS a war.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantpauls42
Reg: 31/01/2003
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting pauls42:
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Quoting Lord Of The Sith:
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Again Pauls thanks for the red arrow for disagreeing with you.  It shows you still haven't changed.


Thanks for the charming comment.   

I didn't give you a red arrow

I don't for people disagreeing with me.

So what excatly have I not changed from - someone who makes snap and rude comments perhaps? Like you perhaps?

and no, I didn't even give you a red arrow for your insulting comment to me. 


I'm bumping this comment so that Lord can apologise if he wants to.
Paul
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantbbursiek
Registered: March 20, 2007
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GSyren,

Quote:
The assumption that such a category as unlawful combatant exists is not contradicted by the findings by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia in the Celebici Judgment. The judgement quoted the 1958 ICRC commentary on the Fourth Geneva Convention: Every person in enemy hands must be either a prisoner of war and, as such, be covered by the Third Convention; or a civilian covered by the Fourth Convention. Furthermore, "There is no intermediate status; nobody in enemy hands can be outside the law,"[4] because in the opinion of the ICRC "If civilians directly engage in hostilities, they are considered 'unlawful' or 'unprivileged' combatants or belligerents (the treaties of humanitarian law do not expressly contain these terms). They may be prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action".[1][5]


Unlawful combatant

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They may be prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action


Also:

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An unlawful combatant is someone who commits belligerent acts, but does not qualify for POW status under GCIII Articles 4 and 5.


Also:

Quote:
1942 Quirin case
The term unlawful combatant has been used for the past century in legal literature, military manuals and case law[3]. The term "unlawful combatants" was first used in US municipal law in a 1942 United States Supreme Court decision in the case ex parte Quirin.[26] In this case, the Supreme Court upheld the jurisdiction of a U.S. military tribunal over the trial of several German saboteurs in the US. This decision states (emphasis added and footnotes removed):

"By universal agreement and practice, the law of war draws a distinction between the armed forces and the peaceful populations of belligerent nations and also between those who are lawful and unlawful combatants. Lawful combatants are subject to capture and detention as prisoners of war by opposing military forces. Unlawful combatants are likewise subject to capture and detention, but in addition they are subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals for acts which render their belligerency unlawful. The spy who secretly and without uniform passes the military lines of a belligerent in time of war, seeking to gather military information and communicate it to the enemy, or an enemy combatant who without uniform comes secretly through the lines for the purpose of waging war by destruction of life or property, are familiar examples of belligerents who are generally deemed not to be entitled to the status of prisoners of war, but to be offenders against the law of war subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals."


This is what the US is doing with this issue. The detainees treatment and status are governed by laws passed by our legislature and enforced by our courts. As I said majority of them have been released after we reviewed the matter, often in conjunction with their country of origin.

There can be debate as to how best to address these issues and the issues you raised about the potential length of the detention pose particular a concern. The US Congress did essentially declare war against Al Qaeda in the aftermath of 9/11 by passing a resolution to that practical effect.

As to your comments about a my point being of a "lynch mob" mentality I have to disagree. What I was trying to do is probe your concern about the victims of those detainees that were released by the US. These detainees were set free as part of an effort to balance the interests of our security with principles of humane threatment. You don't seem to be giving America any credit for engaging in the balance of those concerns. We are doing it even at the cost of innocent lives.

What am I seeking is an acknowledgement that this is a difficult process and that we are making the effort to balance the goal of treating the detainees properly while protecting ourselves from harm. The deaths of these innocent people would not have occurred if these people were not set free.

Brian
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLord Of The Sith
Registered: March 17, 2007
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Quoting pauls42:
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Quoting pauls42:
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Quoting Lord Of The Sith:
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Again Pauls thanks for the red arrow for disagreeing with you.  It shows you still haven't changed.


Thanks for the charming comment.   

I didn't give you a red arrow

I don't for people disagreeing with me.

So what excatly have I not changed from - someone who makes snap and rude comments perhaps? Like you perhaps?

and no, I didn't even give you a red arrow for your insulting comment to me. 


I'm bumping this comment so that Lord can apologise if he wants to.


So let me get this straight.  You chastise me for calling you out on something I know you did, because you did the same thing when we had an argument about Europe.  You then degenerate to name calling like an adolescent who cannot win arguement through careful thought and discussion and now you want me to apologize.
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Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting pauls42:
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No.

But if you asked someone in the pub where you could buy a gun then the police would start interviewing you.

It's the attempt to carry out the deed.


If someone plans a murder here, and then goes looking for a gun, the police would start interviewing him here as well.  Someone can be arrested, and convicted, of attempted murder.

But the comment I made had nothing to do with attempting to carry out the deed, now did it?  My comment was about planning the deed.  There is a difference between planning to do something and looking for the means to carry out that plan.  You purposly misrepresented the facts in order to take a shot. 
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
Who is John Galt?
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting GSyren:
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Quoting skipnet50:
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What many of you don't understand is all their legal posturing that we get suckered into, is all part of their strategy to use or laws and our "morality" against us, quite successfully in far too many areas...not just Gitmo.

So what are you saying, Skip? Is no one entitled to a fair trial? Is that "using the laws against us"? Seems to me that this is exactly the lynch mob mentality that I referred to. How do you know that all the people in Gitmo are guilty? Because your military says so, without any trial?


The answer is quite simple.

The U.S. Constitution provides no rights to unlawful enemy combatants captured and detained on foreign soil.

We have no plans to alter our Constitution to satisfy the bleeding hearts of the world who apparently do not have any concept of the nature of the "enemy".

Are you so uninformed as to think that these are typical "civil" offenses which are afforded due process?

The U.S. provides Constitutional rights to ALL persons while they are in the U.S. and get into legal trouble.

That is far from the case with our "friends" in GITMO.
Hal
 Last edited: by hal9g
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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Registered: March 14, 2007
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Brian,

Just to balance your quotes from Wikipedia, here are two quotes from the same source:
Quote:
The term "unlawful combatant" has been used for the past century in legal literature, military manuals and case law.[7] However—unlike the terms "combatant", "prisoner of war", and "civilian"—the term "unlawful combatant", or similar, is not mentioned in either the Hague or the Geneva Conventions. So while the former terms are well understood and clear under international law, the term "unlawful combatant" is not.[8][3]


Quote:
Legal experts dispute the accuracy of the position taken by the US administration regarding the definition of unlawful combatant, and that such prisoners could be held incommunicado and without legal representative. Also, it has been pointed out that, until now, the term "[illegal] enemy combatant" as used by the US administration, "appeared nowhere in U.S. criminal law, international law, or the law of war.


So, the term has pretty much been invented by the US, as I said.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting sugarjoe:
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Quoting skipnet50:
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... and are enjoying a safe, well-fed life while in detention.

Quoting skipnet50:
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Evidently so, 8Ball. We some users who blatantly abuse the reputation for expressing political beliefs. Can you say Communist...who ever you are. Joe Stalin would be so proud of some of the behavior of our users. I will voice my opinion, as is my right, and if you don't like it...tough noogies.
Skip

This system does not provide enough red arrows that you deserve to be thrown at based on - what I find - your degrading and inhuman comments. This is far beyond expressing political beliefs.

Sugar:

If you believe that then you deserve EVERY red arrow that can be thrown at YOU. Your attempts to muzlel someone just because you don't agree with them outrageous and offensive beyond ALL belief, COMRADE. What I find particularly offensive about this discussion is that we are being abused by people, that were it NOT for the United States of America would be living under the heel of Nazi Germany or the kind and sweet generosities of the USSR.Now you want to roll up and give into the new caliphate, be my guest.

Skip
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsugarjoe
Registered: March 15, 2007
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Quoting skipnet50:
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Sugar:

If you believe that then you deserve EVERY red arrow that can be thrown at YOU. Your attempts to muzlel someone just because you don't agree with them outrageous and offensive beyond ALL belief, COMRADE. What I find particularly offensive about this discussion is that we are being abused by people, that were it NOT for the United States of America would be living under the heel of Nazi Germany or the kind and sweet generosities of the USSR.Now you want to roll up and give into the new caliphate, be my guest.

Skip


Just for the record:

I did not agree with your comment that the prisoners at Guantanamo are' enjoying a safe, well-fed life in detention.' I felt and still feel this is a very degrading comment.

I have no idea what this has to do with comrades, being abusive, former Nazi Germany or the USSR.

 
 Last edited: by sugarjoe
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLord Of The Sith
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Quoting sugarjoe:
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Quoting skipnet50:
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Sugar:

If you believe that then you deserve EVERY red arrow that can be thrown at YOU. Your attempts to muzlel someone just because you don't agree with them outrageous and offensive beyond ALL belief, COMRADE. What I find particularly offensive about this discussion is that we are being abused by people, that were it NOT for the United States of America would be living under the heel of Nazi Germany or the kind and sweet generosities of the USSR.Now you want to roll up and give into the new caliphate, be my guest.

Skip


Just for the record:

I did not agree with your comment that the prisoners at Guantanamo are' enjoying a safe, well-fed life in detention.' I felt and still feel this is a very degrading comment.

I have no idea what this has to do with comrades, being abusive, former Nazi Germany or the USSR.

 


Sugar let me help you.  If the US had not interceded and joined in World War II, your country eventually would have lost and right now the UK would be part of Nazi Germany.  You are being abusive by using a red arrow to punish someone who has a different viewpoint than you.  The comment about comrade see the movie 1984 and this should enlighten towards his meaning.  Finally, if not for the Cold War and the United States participation in it, it is likely the former CCCP would have long ago consumed Europe including your little island.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsugarjoe
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Stay out of this Sith,

you have no clue what you are talking about. Read before you write and stop lecturing me. I understood every single reference he was trying to make, but said they were not connected to his degrading comment. I said that he deserves all red arrows of the world for his comment, does not mean I gave him one. Goodbye. 
 Last edited: by sugarjoe
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantbbursiek
Registered: March 20, 2007
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GSyren,

What your quotes demonstrate (in conjunction with mine) is that there is a dispute as to the meaning and scope of the term "unlawful combatant" and how they should be treated within the framework of international agreements regarding the treatment of prisoners. The quote below:

Quote:

in the opinion of the ICRC "If civilians directly engage in hostilities, they are considered 'unlawful' or 'unprivileged' combatants or belligerents (the treaties of humanitarian law do not expressly contain these terms). They may be prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action"


directly contradicts your assertion that the notion of a group commonly referred to as unlawful combatants was purely an invention of the US. The quote above comes from an opinion by an international criminal tribunal. The "term" has multiple iterations "illegal combatant", "unlawful combatant", "unprivileged combatants" etc. but the important issue is not what exactly to call them but rather whether the existing framework of treaties and agreements contemplates such a group.

Quote:
the term "unlawful combatant", or similar, is not mentioned in either the Hague or the Geneva Conventions


Your quote above does not prove that such a classification doesn't exist - it just proves that the conventions don't explicitly use the term. But if you read the definition of "combatants" or "POWs" from those agreements the definitions clearly exclude terrorists like Al Qaeda. If you read the definition of "civilian" from the various treaties it clearly excludes Al Qaeda types. Therefore they are not "combatants", "prisoners of war", or "civilians" -- so what are they? The answer - unlawful combatants.

This is the kind of legal analysis I'm familiar with from my previous career. I'm not suggesting that there are not substantive issues out there about unlawful combatants because there certainly are - primarily about what rights they have or should receive. What I am pointing out is that there is such a class of combatants within the framework of international agreements on the issue.

The US is trying to create a fair and just way of adjudicating the status of these detainees while protecting our security and the success of our war effort. NATO forces from various countries are currently deployed in Afghanistan engaged in sporadic combat with the Taliban who are trying to become a factor there again. If we released these prisoners at least some of them would return to the battlefield (as some of the other released detainees did) and resume killing NATO forces. Does that make sense?

Does it make sense to give terrorists who pay no heed to the rules of war more rights than lawful POWs would receive? If you treat them as criminals then that's what you're doing.

Brian
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Just a few lines from a UK perspective (mine anyway) regarding the old 'we saved your butts' comments...

Without U.S intervention, UK had held Germany at the Channel and had pushed Italy out of Eygpt. Russia had pushed Germany away from its capital and held them at a stalemate. The Germans had no way of reaching across the Channel, and the airwar was moving in RAF favour from 1941 onwards.

UK would of needed to adapt quicker, but the facts remain that Germany had no chance of taking Britain, and of course that was never there original intention. The RAF was raiding Europe day and night long before the Mighty 8th came on the scene. And a really important thing to note is at that time we had a huge British Empire keeping up supplies of men, firepower & machines right through WW2.

So IMO Britain & Russia would of probably remained free without the US becoming involved, but the core and Eastern Europe would have been lost. Fortunately for every advocate of freedom and democracy our 2 great nations, plus many many allies, including brave Dutch, French and European resistance fighters, fought as allies to rid the world of a tyrant and enable Europe to live together as 'generally' peaceful neighbours and trading partners.

So I personally thank every brave soldier who took up arms in WW2 whatever nationality they were, for the sacrifices made for future generations
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
Who is John Galt?
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting richierich:
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...but the facts remain that Germany had no chance of taking Britain,


That, I'm afraid, is pure revisionist history.

Britain was on the brink of collapse after non-stop bombing.  Any objective history book paints a very different picture of Britain's ability to continue the fight at the time the U.S entered the war.

I am not and never will be one to arrogantly boast about what we did in Wold War II.  We did what we had to do.  That's all.

I fully agree with you though that I find the "we saved your butt comments" to be nothing short of disgusting.
Hal
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLord Of The Sith
Registered: March 17, 2007
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Quoting sugarjoe:
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Stay out of this Sith,

you have no clue what you are talking about. Read before you write and stop lecturing me. I understood every single reference he was trying to make, but said they were not connected to his degrading comment. I said that he deserves all red arrows of the world for his comment, does not mean I gave him one. Goodbye. 


Hey Sugar,
  This is an open forum.  If you are not interested in my opinion don't make any of your own.  I did read your entire post and I am not lecturing you, I am answering the questions you put forth.  Actually, I know very well what i am talking about.  Being that Skip is my friend I have a little insight as to his thought processes.
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