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Invelos Forums->General: General Discussion |
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Why Liberals Just Lovve Obama |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Snark: I am proudly a strict constitutionalist, always have been and always. I do not subscribe to the theory that the Constitution is a living, breathing document whose meaning and interpretation can change over time. For those who subscribe to that theory, I invite you over to my house for game of poker using living, breathing rules. Guaranteed the house wins. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: March 19, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,018 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Srehtims: Quote: A balloonist in a hot air balloon realized he was lost. He spotted a boat below, lowered his altitude, and shouted to the man in the boat, 'Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago, but I don't know where I am.'
The boater consulted his portable GPS and replied, 'You're in a hot air balloon, approximately 30 feet above a ground elevation of 2346 feet above sea level. You are at 31 degrees, 14.97 minutes north latitude and 100 degrees, 49.09 minutes west longitude.'
The balloonist rolled his eyes and said, 'You must be a Republican.'
'I am,' replied the boater. 'How did you know?'
'Well,' answered the balloonist, 'everything you told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to do with your information, and I'm still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help to me.'
The boater smiled and responded, 'You must be a Democrat.'
'I am,' replied the balloonist. 'How did you know?'
'Well,' said the boater, 'you don't know where you are or where you are going. You've risen to where you are, due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise that you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me to solve your problem. You're in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but, somehow, now it's my fault.' Funny, I have heard this exact same joke with an engineer in the role of the Republican and a manager in the role of the Democrat! |
| Registered: June 3, 2007 | Posts: 333 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Rifter: Quote: Sorry, but the standard by which the right views judicial appointments is that of strict constructionism; that is that the judge interprets the Constitution in the strictest possible way when applying the law. To the left, that is viewed as "activisim" by conservatives. Tain't no such thing. Democrats, on the other hand, are fond of finding penumbras within the Constitution, of calling it "a living document," whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. What it boils down to, is that the Constitution laid down certain criteria for making changes to that document, and it did not give judges the ability to "create" new rights or legal precedents from it out of whole cloth. You can believe that all you want Rifter, but the reality is somewhat different. The constitution is simply not that clear. Ex. The first ammendment has long been held to protect writing, and it was clearly intended to. Speech is not meant literally, interpretation is required. Whether right or left leaning, courts will intpret the constitution through their own values. You don't need to look further than Bush vs. Gore to see a good example of this on the right. Right decision? Probably. But it's as tortured of an intpretation of the equal protection clause as Roe vs. Wade was of the Fourteenth ammendment. Neither is defensible on a plain reading of the text. That's why I like the court divided. |
| Registered: June 3, 2007 | Posts: 333 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Dan W: Quote: I’m glad you don’t wish to resort to name-calling. I haven’t and I don’t take kindly to it. Of course if you are implying that I have, the implication is unwarranted.
You said that you do not believe Obama’s exit strategy is the best method. Do you believe he will alter his plan once he is in office or that he will change his mind? McCain has an exit strategy that does not include a pre-determined time line. Are you saying that a time line is more important to you than an effective exit strategy? How does an immediate exit strategy exploit our “weak hand” for our best interests?
You seem to feel that having “a big pile of ammo” on hand is a prudent thing. I agree that the realities of terrorism are with us to stay but I don’t subscribe to the idea that combating them in our streets is inevitable. If you do, how can you support a man who’s voting record and policies would take your handguns and almost all of your ammo?
Sorry, I’m not following your logic. No implication was intended Dan. I was multitasking when I responded and got my conversations crossed between here and email. I don't think either cantidate will get to dictate the endgame here. The Iraqi government will. The existence of a timeline probably isn't going to change anything in terms of the "success" of the mission. It's going to be a net loss no matter how we leave. We took a stable, secular country and destabilized it. Its government (such as it is) does not share our values and it now provides a haven for terrorist activity and an effective recruiting tool for the real enemy. There is a slim possibility that a timeline will ecourage the Iraqi government to make some concrete steps towards reconcilliation that will reduce the damage, but I am not all that hopeful right now. I certainly wouldn't use a rigid timeline, but I think the end result will be the same with or without one. As far as Obama and guns go... His position isn't quite as extreme as taking all handguns away. But even if he wanted to, he hasn't got a chance of doing so. The supreme court as it stands right now would knock it down before the ink was dry. He doesn't have a chance in hell of tipping the court enough to make it feasible. Both cantidates have beliefs that scare me, but in Obama's case I don't think he's in a position to get them implemened. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 5,635 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote: Snark: I am proudly a strict constitutionalist, always have been and always. I do not subscribe to the theory that the Constitution is a living, breathing document whose meaning and interpretation can change over time. For those who subscribe to that theory, I invite you over to my house for game of poker using living, breathing rules. Guaranteed the house wins.
Skip Hmmm... Article. I. - The Legislative Branch Section 2 - The House Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. Article. IV. - The States Section 2 - State citizens, Extradition No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, But shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due. Yeah, let's keep it just the way it was, because any change at all is just so wrong. Things like the 13th & 14th Amendments just get in the way of keeping the rules fair. | | | If it wasn't for bad taste, I wouldn't have no taste at all.
Cliff |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Hmm I believe we have things called amendments to take care of such things, but these are handled by the PEOPLE. Clif. Not by legislative OR judicial fiat. But, NICE try. And you are welcome to come play poker at my house where we use living and breathing Rules.BTW precisely what p[oint were your attempting to make , Cliff were trying to make believe I am an idiot or show yourself. When we have things such as Roe v Wade which added a right which is npot contained within the S Constitution, nor was there EVER and amendment passed. That is juducial fiat. Where do i come down on Roe v Wade....simple it is NOT a federal issue, nor is there any right to abortion. But it is very much a legitimate state and local issue. There is no "right" to health care no matter how much the Democrats want to scream it from the rooftops and ANY such action by any branch of government would be acting unconstitutionally. With every right there also goes responsibilitySkip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| Registered: June 3, 2007 | Posts: 333 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote: Hmm I believe we have things called amendments to take care of such things, but these are handled by the PEOPLE. Clif. Not by legislative OR judicial fiat. But, NICE try. And you are welcome to come play poker at my house where we use living and breathing Rules.BTW precisely what p[oint were your attempting to make , Cliff were trying to make believe I am an idiot or show yourself.
When we have things such as Roe v Wade which added a right which is npot contained within the S Constitution, nor was there EVER and amendment passed. That is juducial fiat. Where do i come down on Roe v Wade....simple it is NOT a federal issue, nor is there any right to abortion. But it is very much a legitimate state and local issue.
There is no "right" to health care no matter how much the Democrats want to scream it from the rooftops and ANY such action by any branch of government would be acting unconstitutionally. With every right there also goes responsibility
Skip Actually Skip, it's well within the powers of congress to mandate health care for all. They are not limited to passing laws that reiterate rights already enumerated in the constitution. That would be rather redundant (And unecessary) When they DO pass such a law (And for better or worse they will. President Obama will sign it) it will be constitutional unless there is a serious deficiency in the law beyond it's premise. I agree, Roe vs. Wade was a bad decision. I do believe that women should have the right to abortion, but that isn't enumerated in the constitution. It should have been left to congress to deal with. As far as the last bit goes... Well it's a nice sound bite... innit? Not much more than that though.We have the right to "life liberty" etc.. Where is the responsibiliy there? If someone muders you your life is not on trial, only the actions of the killer. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Snark:
If you have the right to health care by government, the responsibility to pay for it falls to the taxpayers, you included, and I have one phrase....get your hand out of my pocket. The funny guy in the red white and blue suit and white hair takes enough from me ALREADY. Are you next going to suggest Universal Nutrition, you will need food before you need ANY doctor, how Universal Apparel, Universal Housing...oh I forgot we already tried that and look what it got us, Universal Transportation, where does it end. What is being described here is a SOVIET-style state. Not in MY America, thank you very much.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: June 3, 2007 | Posts: 333 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote: Snark:
If you have the right to health care by government, the responsibility to pay for it falls to the taxpayers, you included, and I have one phrase....get your hand out of my pocket. The funny guy in the red white and blue suit and white hair takes enough from me ALREADY. Are you next going to suggest Universal Nutrition, you will need food before you need ANY doctor, how Universal Apparel, Universal Housing...oh I forgot we already tried that and look what it got us, Universal Transportation, where does it end. What is being described here is a SOVIET-style state. Not in MY America, thank you very much.
Skip You're confusing right with legislation. They're two different things As far as the rest of it goes... The word "SOVIET" hasn't scared me in more than 30 years... Communism failed and no one is trying to bring it here. The red menace, isn't. |
| Registered: March 15, 2007 | Posts: 374 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting sugarjoe: Quote:
Everything is permitted to be discussed here. And as long as we don't call each other names, no red arrows are founded. A different opinion is no reason for that. I have never given a red arrow based on an opinion that I did not like.
It looks to me that you try to get the easy way out Skip, I cannot see why quoting the relevant passages of Mr. Obamas book would bring you any bad reputation, on the contrary... Can anybody explain to me why I got a red arrow for this post? | | | Last edited: by sugarjoe |
| Registered: March 19, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,018 |
| Posted: | | | | No, I can't. But what I CAN do is give you a green one to compensate... |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,394 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting sugarjoe: Quote: Quoting sugarjoe:
Quote:
Everything is permitted to be discussed here. And as long as we don't call each other names, no red arrows are founded. A different opinion is no reason for that. I have never given a red arrow based on an opinion that I did not like.
It looks to me that you try to get the easy way out Skip, I cannot see why quoting the relevant passages of Mr. Obamas book would bring you any bad reputation, on the contrary...
Can anybody explain to me why a got a red arrow for this post? If I had to guess, someone gave you a red arrow because you mentioned Skip's name without calling him a scoundrel. And probably from the same person who would have given Skip a red arrow for quoting Obama's own words. | | | Another Ken (not Ken Cole) Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges. DVD Profiler user since June 15, 2001 |
| Registered: April 8, 2007 | Posts: 1,057 |
| Posted: | | | | See: Hereclick objects Wow! I thought this kind of cute, thanks for the red arrow. | | | If I felt any better I'd be sick! Envy is mental theft. If you covet another mans possessions, then you should be willing to take on his responsibilities, heartaches, and troubles, along with his money. D. Koontz | | | Last edited: by Rico |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,202 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote: There is no "right" to health care no matter how much the Democrats want to scream it from the rooftops and ANY such action by any branch of government would be acting unconstitutionally. With every right there also goes responsibility I guess it all depends on how you interpret the phrase "promote the general welfare." | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 2,694 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Snark: Quote: Quoting Rifter:
Quote: Sorry, but the standard by which the right views judicial appointments is that of strict constructionism; that is that the judge interprets the Constitution in the strictest possible way when applying the law. To the left, that is viewed as "activisim" by conservatives. Tain't no such thing. Democrats, on the other hand, are fond of finding penumbras within the Constitution, of calling it "a living document," whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. What it boils down to, is that the Constitution laid down certain criteria for making changes to that document, and it did not give judges the ability to "create" new rights or legal precedents from it out of whole cloth.
You can believe that all you want Rifter, but the reality is somewhat different. The constitution is simply not that clear. Ex. The first ammendment has long been held to protect writing, and it was clearly intended to. Speech is not meant literally, interpretation is required.
Whether right or left leaning, courts will intpret the constitution through their own values. You don't need to look further than Bush vs. Gore to see a good example of this on the right. Right decision? Probably. But it's as tortured of an intpretation of the equal protection clause as Roe vs. Wade was of the Fourteenth ammendment. Neither is defensible on a plain reading of the text.
That's why I like the court divided. The Constitution is not clear only to those who are desperate to find something in it to justify whatever agenda they have. In actuality, the First Amend. is talking about political speech, not common day to day speech as most people think. Oh, and "speech" does not mean just verbalizing, it also covers written discourse. The courts are not supposed to "create" legislation when they interpret the Constitution. There are no penumbra to be found in that document, despite what most liberals will tell you. That is why I said I am a strict constructionist as far as interpretation goes. Roe v. Wade is just such a case of a penumbra, or a finding, in the Constitution that simply doesn't exist. It is more properly a state's rights issue, and the USSC should never have accepted that case in the first place. Lest you think this is just my opinion, let me assure you that it is based on the contemporaneous writings of many scholarly men who knew the Founders and were conversant with the issues of that time. One of my most prized books is a copy of "On the Constitution of the United States" by Justice Joseph Story, first printed in 1840, as well as "The Federalist Papers" and others of the period. If you read those books and understand them, the Constitution suddenly becomes crystal clear, and none of the liberal nonsense about a living document we hear today holds water. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964 Make America Great Again! |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 2,694 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Snark: Quote: Quoting skipnet50:
Quote: Hmm I believe we have things called amendments to take care of such things, but these are handled by the PEOPLE. Clif. Not by legislative OR judicial fiat. But, NICE try. And you are welcome to come play poker at my house where we use living and breathing Rules.BTW precisely what p[oint were your attempting to make , Cliff were trying to make believe I am an idiot or show yourself.
When we have things such as Roe v Wade which added a right which is npot contained within the S Constitution, nor was there EVER and amendment passed. That is juducial fiat. Where do i come down on Roe v Wade....simple it is NOT a federal issue, nor is there any right to abortion. But it is very much a legitimate state and local issue.
There is no "right" to health care no matter how much the Democrats want to scream it from the rooftops and ANY such action by any branch of government would be acting unconstitutionally. With every right there also goes responsibility
Skip
Actually Skip, it's well within the powers of congress to mandate health care for all. They are not limited to passing laws that reiterate rights already enumerated in the constitution. That would be rather redundant (And unecessary) When they DO pass such a law (And for better or worse they will. President Obama will sign it) it will be constitutional unless there is a serious deficiency in the law beyond it's premise.
I agree, Roe vs. Wade was a bad decision. I do believe that women should have the right to abortion, but that isn't enumerated in the constitution. It should have been left to congress to deal with.
As far as the last bit goes... Well it's a nice sound bite... innit? Not much more than that though.We have the right to "life liberty" etc.. Where is the responsibiliy there? If someone muders you your life is not on trial, only the actions of the killer. We have the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," NOT a guarantee that the government will provide you with the means to live, or guarantee the means to maintain your freedom. It also only guarantees ONLY that you have the right to PURSUE happiness, not that you will be successful in that pursuit. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964 Make America Great Again! |
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