Quoting Dan W:

Quote:
To dismiss the events on 9/11 is an interesting idea. I wish we could all do that. I know I can't.

I'll help you out a little bit with the numbers.

In 7 targets (all US) before 9/11, Al Qaeda killed 383 people. Without going all the way out to 10 targets we see a total of 3,381 killed by Al Qaeda operatives. How is that for perspective?

I have no idea what Al Qaeda's total is for the time since 9/11, nor do I know how many they killed outside of those 8 US targets. Perhaps, since you seem to know them, you will post those numbers?

Well, seeing as you were so ready to dismiss events that directly impacted me and so many of my countrymen for three decades as 'amateurish', I figured it was an equitable request (even if it is as unpalatable as the one you expected of me).

Okay, I'll admit that those figures are higher than I thought. How does that elevate Islamic terrorism so far above other terrorism (which I believe is what you're trying to argue)?

Can we just drop this splinter of the discussion? I don't think it's really adding anything and I don't see the point of saying murder for the sake of 300 year old revenge is any lesser than a murder against those perceived to glamorise and promote sin.

Stuart

cool

To bbursiek

Why would you wish to bring this up?  Everyone realizes this is wrong.  What is the point?

There are many things wrong in this world, and this is only one of them.

Somewhat long but at least interesting.

I got this in my email,l some may agree and some may not,
but sums up the candidates better than most of the liberal media.

Another opinion:

After long and serious thought, I have decided to endorse Senator John McCain for President. I have always voted for the person and have not voted for anyone because some political party was telling me who I should vote for. We all know the choices by now and, that said, I do believe that the process of selecting a chief executive is deeply flawed. The words 'money' and 'special interests' come to mind, among many others.

Here's the way I see it:

Barack Obama, you are a fine public speaker. You are also an extremely liberal Senator from the State of Illinois, which has a long and rich history of political corruption of the first magnitude. You are indeed a child of that system.

You have finally insulted my intelligence far beyond my capacity to tolerate your insults. It has nothing at all to do with your skin color. As a matter of fact, it would be so COOL to finally have an African-American for President. What a great statement that would be to the entire world that we are indeed the greatest country on earth! But, unfortunately, General Colin Powell is not running, and YOU are NOT the man for this job !

Barack baby, you want me to believe that you have never heard the sermons of your own pastor, the Right Reverend 'God Damn America' Jeremiah Wright. It is a matter of record that this has been your church for over 20 years. It is a matter of record that you were married there by this very pastor, and that your children were baptized there. The good Reverend saw fit to visit Khadafy in Libya with you and to give a lifetime achievement award to Louis Farrakhan, of all people. We have all now seen excerpts of his sermons all over the airwaves by now. And you have publicly stated that this man IS your 'spiritual mentor'.

BUT, your pastor is NOT the reason I am NOT voting for you. His words were disturbing enough, but it is your own HUGE church congregation, seen jumping, hooting and howling to his words in the background that disturb me the most. And please don't tell me you attended church there and never once heard a 'discouraging word' in the 20 years you attended there. Don't tell me, that in addition to the good reverend, that you are now not having anything to do with all those other people seen hooting and howling out in the audience in the background of his fiery tirades.

Even Oprah Winfrey got disgusted and walked out. I am no Oprah fan, but still she did the right thing. Now YOU look me in the eye and ask me to believe that you never heard such language in all the years you attended there ! This is like me telling you that I attended dozens of Klan rallies and never once heard the 'N' word. Yep. And Bill Clinton 'did not inhale'.

Yes, Mr. Obama, we all have friends who have said stupid things that embarrassed us, but NOW you have asked me to believe something that is so incredibly stupid that you are telling me that I am just stupid enough to believe you. THAT is the main reason that I will never vote for you. I am deeply sorry, that in a country teeming with enormously talented African Americans who would make a good President, that the political system has chosen YOU. You are a pathetic and plastic excuse for an American, who will not even salute the Flag during the Pledge of Allegiance. God forbid you ever get near the Oval Office.

Now, did I mention Bill Clinton ?

AH YES ! This brings us to MRS. WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON, who this candidate really is, in spite of all the other names she may care to call herself. This 'feminist' piece of work of course would like to be referred to as MS. and we all know who wears the pant suit in that family.

MS. Clinton, (sugar), it is just as depressing to realize that there are dozens of women who would also make great Presidents. But, fortunately, the horrible state of the selection process has selected YOU. Ms. Clinton, I'm sorry, but you could not tell the truth if we waterboarded your worthless ass! Still you play the role of the 'embarrassed but dignified noble wife'. What utter malarkey ! I am not voting for you for a world of reasons, but the main one is the same as my not voting for Senator Obama. You persistently insult my intelligence. It COULD be conceivably possible that you did not know about Monica Lewinsky, extremely remote, but possible if we stretch our imaginations a bit. But you turn around and then ask me to believe that you also did not know about Paula Jones and the legion of other women who were chewed up and spit out by your lecherous excuse for a husband. Puleese turn off this broken record!!!

But let's set aside your hubby's flagrant peccadilloes. The real reason I will never vote for you is that I don't think the country can survive EIGHT MORE YEARS of Whitewater, Travelgate, Filegate, Sandy Berger stuffing his socks with classified intelligence, Janet Reno's goon squad, and the myriad other corruptions that seem to stick to you. So our former President can't keep his dick in his pants. The REAL issue is that he committed perjury under oath when he lied about it and the pathetically-attempted cover up that followed. Like you, he is totally incapable of telling the truth. He could not do it if you tortured him, and in voting for you, we would get the BOTH of you, all over again. The same folks who could have taken out Osama Bin Laden over 3,000 dead Americans ago !

And please stop telling me that you have '8 years of experience' to lead us. You were the freakin' first lady already, not the Commander in Chief. Jeez! The sum of your 'experience' is that of the most worrisome and incompetent meddling in the history of the White House. You even cursed your pitiful staff and the Secret Service agents who were and still are unfortunately charged with risking their lives to protect your worthless, thieving hide, and all at the expense of other people who have to work for a living.

Your single pathetic platform is to finance the illegal drugs, alcoholism and bad habits of the very lowest and most irresponsible freeloaders in America and to then 'garnish the wages' (your own words) of every law-abiding and hard-working American to pay for it. This disaster you refer to as 'Universal Health Care'. Where have you been the last 30 years? Did you not see that socialism is a failure wherever it has been tried? Did you not notice that the Soviet Union has collapsed since it gave no reward to those who worked the hardest for the fruits of their own labors to pay for those who will not?

It is interesting to see all the dead bodies that you and your hubby have left in your wake. Suicides, mysterious deaths, cover-ups that make Richard Nixon look like a rank amateur. The utter contempt and unbelievable arrogance of some of your strongest supporters, most notably the recently resigned and disgraced Governor Eliot Spitzer, the epitome of hypocritical and malevolent arrogance gone wild, one of your most ardent, wealthy and powerful political supporters. A man the news media refuses to admit IS a 'super delegate' in your own political machine, a fine example of your own 'adopted' state of New York. No wonder you moved there to run for Senator! The environment there is perfect for the likes of you!

Yes, I would vote for a woman, but I will NOT vote for YOU!

Which leaves us with Senator John McCain.

John, you are a flawed man. You are a bit old, a bit loony, and you have a notoriously bad temper. This perfectly qualifies you, in my humble opinion, to lead us for the next eight years. I WANT your trembling hand on the nuclear button.

Think about it.

We have Kim Jong IL, Chavez and Ahmadenijad all running around like lunatics, threatening America and threatening to plunge the world into nuclear Armageddon. We have Putin and the Chinese blustering and rattling their sabers at us. I want John McCain in the Oval Office and I want him to be really pissed off at all these other nut jobs around the planet.

John, once you are elected, I want you to go into the Oval Office and throw one of your perfect FITS. Jump up and down and throw something through a plate glass window. Rip the drapes down and foam at the mouth a bit. And I want the whole thing on camera so that Ahmadinejad can see it. I want ALL of these 'world leaders' to lay awake at night and to break out in a cold sweat every time they think of messing with the United States of America.

I want the nuclear button sitting right next to the alarm clock on your night stand. I want pictures of this to be sent to Iran, Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, Libya, Syria, Pakistan, and those other unfriendly persons in the sheets, the Saudis.

On the domestic front, poor John did try and reach across the aisle to the opposition in a desperate effort to compromise and to get the Congress to do something. You may not agree with his efforts, but at least he TRIED. For all his efforts, all he got handed to him was his head in a basket. The liberals are pissed at him and the conservatives are pissed at him. Just my kinda guy.

I predict that John will select Senator Joe Lieberman as his running mate. Good choice. I want a JEW whose memory of the Holocaust is still fresh in his mind and who is royally pissed off at all of these towel-headed morons in the Middle East to be the next in line if something should happen to John. Shalom, Vice President Joe. One heartbeat from the Oval Office.

Finally. John McCain knows on a most personal level what it is to suffer horrible torture for years and to see others die, right in front of you, for their love of America. When you ask him about it, he will tell you that what he did was 'nothing special'. Even more incredibly, he states that ANY American who truly loves his country would do exactly the same as he did in that situation. You and I will have a hard time believing that, but the real point is that John McCain believes that about the 'average American', and that, dear friends and neighbors, is why I will cast my one poor ballot for on election day for John McCain -- warts and all.

God Bless America

Quoting Srehtims:

Quote:
Somewhat long but at least interesting.

I got this in my email,l some may agree and some may not,
but sums up the candidates better than most of the liberal media.
[...]

IMO, this is simply a one-sided collection of snide-remarks, cheap shots and stereotypes and reminds me of 'political debates' conducted after the consumption of a select numbers of pitchers of brew between like-minded individuals with a very distinct political preference, preferrably in low places with guns held high and saw dust on the floor and contry music blasting from the speakers (the last phrases are stereotypes in themselves, yup, but I'm not claiming to be impartial at all).

And yes, the information handed out by the so-called 'liberal media' might actually paint equally distorted pictures, coming from their preference. That doesn't make either a 'good summary', their equally incomplete, inept and useless.

It's not even close to being a good summary of the candidates, it way too polemic to even be granted a second thought (especially the lame attempt to glorify the 'use' a mad man might provide for the US and for the world if elected into the White House), in my book, that is, your milage may very well vary...

To: bbursiek

I think you are wrong when you say that this issue is being overlooked mainly because of political correctness.  I don’t think it is being overlooked at all, and is in fact being treated by the west as what it is, which is plainly and simply murder.  The people who commit these crimes are being treated as criminals by the west.

You mention in your last paragraph about needing to safeguard your secular democratic traditions against cultures that would turn back the clock on women’s rights, gay rights, religious freedoms etc.  I don’t believe that your being against this one issue (which every sane person is against) will have the effect you wish, unless you are trying to point out how extremism in any religion is a bad thing.  It is apparent to me that the USA’s women’s rights, gays’ rights and many others, are in jeopardy from extreme Christian fundamentalists and not from, as you say, immigrants from the parts of the world where honor killings are acceptable.

I am in complete agreement with northbloke.

To all commenters:

My argument is not that the perpetrators of these heinous acts are being let go -- I never suggested that but that is how you have interpreted my remarks. Let me make myself clear -- I am not aware of a single instance in the west where an "honor killing" has been ignored by the appropriate authorities. To the contrary in every case that I am aware of the authorities appear to be pursuing the cases appropriately, i.e. they are prosecuting the cases as murders as they should. In that respect I agree with you.

The point I was trying to make is that many in the west are afraid to confront the issue of honor killings and related issues from the standpoint of being (in my opinion at least) reprehensible cultural practices. We all condemn murder in general and these acts certainly constitute murder but are we addressing the culture that incites this kind of behavior? I see a great deal of unwillingness to call "a spade a spade" as the saying goes -- people condemn the act but not the teaching/training that led to it.

For example the Holocaust was far more than a just a few guys committing murder -- it was an organized hate crime perpetuated as part of a probably the most reprehensible value system/ideology the world has ever seen. I am not suggesting that the cultural practices of Islam/Muslim countries are that depraved but I am suggesting that just putting this issue down as garden variety murder no different than clerk shot during a convenience store robbery is a big mistake in my view.

This issue is different because unless we confront as a society the underlying cultural cause of these heinous crimes we will be condemning more women to their fates. The PC aspect of that to me is coming through loud and clear with the commentary as you guys are attacking me for bringing the subject up rather than commenting on the underlying issue.

Northbloke offers what I would describe as generic comments without substance:

Quote:
your post suggests that honour killing is an accepted norm within muslim society and that is far from the truth.

and

Quote:
but don't try and make it sound like it's a normal part of muslim culture, and don't try and pretend that other religions or societies aren't capable of such atrocities.

These are blanket PC-esque defenses of the indefensible -- i.e. these practices are not the norm (based on what?) and every culture is capable of atrocities -- These assumptions are not driven by facts but by a burning desire to avoid coming across as judmental about a different culture. In the west most of our nations have come to terms with our bloody pasts and acknowledge the major wrongs that were done in the name of our faith, nationalism, ethnicity etc. -- whether major events like the Holocaust or numerous small ones like the widespread lynchings of blacks in the US for many decades. These practices have fortunately largely faded from our societies today but certainly not completely.

My point isn't that these murderers are being prosecuted b/c they obviously are -- but rather that many in the west refuse to address the underlying issues raised by this behavior due to their devotion to the virtue of tolerance. Tolerance is a virtue but one that can be our undoing if we don't realize the point where it needs to end.

To: bbursiek

You comment: "but rather that many in the west refuse to address the underlying issues raised by this behavior due to their devotion to the virtue of tolerance. Tolerance is a virtue but one that can be our undoing if we don't realize the point where it needs to end." How would you suggest we address the underlying issues?

How can you complain that we generalize, but you, on the other hand can say: "The point I was trying to make is that many in the west are afraid to confront the issue of honor killings and related issues from the standpoint of being (in my opinion at least) reprehensible cultural practices."

Your arguments don't hold water. Almost everything you say is a generality.  Of course in an argument such as this one, generalities are the rule.  Specifics, such as you previously pointing out a single honor killing, does nothing to further your proposition.  In fact it does nothing but undermine what I think you want to propose which is: intolerance should not be acceptable.  Whether that intolerance is stupid brothers who perceive their sister is evil, or people who think gays are evil, or people who think Muslims are evil, or people who think that it is wrong to mention that extreme Christian fundamentalists are intolerant.

The truth, I think, really is that you have something against the Islamic faith and or Muslims, and you use honor kiliings as a red herring.  There are over a billion Muslims in this world and you talk about 5,000 honor killings.  This translates into 1 honor killing per 200,000.  This strikes me that very, very few Muslims think this is acceptable behavior.