bbursiek,
So, basically, you're saying that the actions of a few is enough to find fault with an entire culture? Does that apply to any criminal activity? Or just crimes motivated by religion?

The U.S. have one of the highest homicide rates in the Western world. Does that mean there's something wrong with the U.S. culture?

Or, if we limit ourselves to activites motivated by religion, how about anti-abortion related violence? Is that a reason to condemn an entire culture?

For me the answer is an obvious "no."

KM

Graham (fubar),

You make a valid point about generalities. I cede that I have spoken in general terms as well.

I guess from my perspective I have provided some specific examples of cultural practices that seem to be practiced by large numbers of Muslims. I was asking for something specific to back up the oft made claim that a large % of Muslims reject these practices. I can recall a poll (mentioned earlier in this thread) where roughly 25% of young western Muslims indicated suicide bombings in defense of Islam are acceptable. That seems to suggest there is a large problem even here at home.

I have also made the point repeatedly that I am not against Muslims nor biased against them. You make my larger point (about westerners being extremely defensive about criticizing Islam) by lowering yourself to accusing me of bigotry against muslims merely by raising these issues as part of a discussion about Muslims culture intergrating (or failing to) in the west. I have said nothing that condemns all Muslims or even close -- you are putting those words in my mouth. I have taken great pains to make that clear repeatedly but you have to put me in the rhetorical gutter for merely raising the questions.

Have I accused those of being biased against Christians of bigotry for being critical of Christians - NO.

Lastly the notion you raise (by implication) that only the 5,000 Muslims who actually committed honor kiliings support the practice. 

Quote:
There are over a billion Muslims in this world and you talk about 5,000 honor killings. This translates into 1 honor killing per 200,000.  This strikes me that very, very few Muslims think this is acceptable behavior.

I have to say that is a weak argument. Certainly more Muslims than just the actual murderers support the practice. Your analysis also fails to account for the reality that multiple killers were undoubtedly responsible of some of these incidents. The fact that you appear to dismiss out of hand the 5,000 murders of women mostly by their own relatives!! as insignificant (as a statement about problems with Muslim culture) is a unfortunate thing. I think the fact that these crimes are committed by their own kin in most cases for the most innocuous of behaviors (going out on a date etc.) is quite striking.

As to your question about what specifically I would propose I can point out that I said I'm not entirely sure what we in the west can or should do about this. It is a very difficult issue because we have traditions of freedom of reilgion and expression that are very important.

I think it starts with a willingness to acknowledge there's a problem with the integration of Muslims into our societies. There is a disturbing "balkanization" going with Muslims keeping to themselves and not becoming a part of their adopted home's society at large. I have read extensively about the de facto segregation occuring in many European countries in particular. This creates the increasing problem of an "us" vs. "them" mentality which is leading to the growing popularity of hard line politicians in the west (Fortyn, Wilders, the Le Pen guy in France etc.) who play on the fears of the populace about "the foreigners". I think the effort to create separate "Sharia" courts alongside the regular justice system is a very bad idea in this regard. We are all part of the same society and we need to emphasize that we all have to live by the same rules. If your wife or daughter offends you can disown her but you can't exact "justice" as it may be done in your homeland. I just don't think we are doing enough in this area to combat this problem.

It saddens me greatly to hear the stories of these wonderful young women embracing the options they have in the west - to marry for love, to go to school, to work in your chosen profession etc, only to have their own father or brother murder them for merely doing what my sisters have done their whole lives. It is more tragic in my mind because it is so senseless - we put these choices before these women and encourage them to make their own choices only to have their own family snuff that out. Its awful and it has cultural roots that should be addressed.

The reality is that the countries where they come from have an almost universally awful record on human rights. Their laws provide very little of the rights we take for granted in the west. The immigrants coming to the west have grown up with vastly different understandings of what is legal and what is not. Are we making sure they know that?

Brian

KM,

I don't agree that it is wrong to find fault with a culture in any case. You seem to be suggesting that all cultures are equally ok in all respects. That is clearly not true.

I am arguing that Muslim culture has some serious issues today. Predominantly they relate to the rights of women and religious freedom. Are you seriously arguing that isn't true?

That said I am not "condemning" an entire culture but merely being critical of certain aspects of their culture. I obviously don't agree that it's "just a few" who subscribe to these heinous practices. I have consistently argued that their is substantial agreement within the community (maybe not a majority) about some of the more reprehesible practices of their culture. Certainly this is true in many Muslim countries.

Are we at the point where we are not allowed to even be critical of a culture without being attacked as some kind of bigot? I personally don't want to live in a world where we are so tolerant that we are afraid to even offer any criticism about the problems with a culture.

As to your points about US culture I would say that I would not "condemn" the US culture becuase of our issues with gun violence. However I would vigorously defend your right to be critical of our culture for that. I wouldn't accuse you of being an anti-US bigot for merely offering rational and responsible criticism of one of our problems.

Furthermore I think that kind of criticism of the US for that and many other issues is quite alive and well in Europe (and vice versa I might add). Do I think we should stop being critical of each other? No -- nor do I think Muslim culture should get a free pass from the same treatment as we inflict on each other in an open debate.

As for anti-abortion violence I have and would be critical of the religious fundamentalist culture that attempts to justify this kind of violence. It is more than just the perpetrators of these crimes that bear some responsibility for them. If their friends, family, and pastor encourage the demonizing of abortion providers to such a degree as to create a circumstance where one of their own acts to kill someone over the issue they should be criticized for it. Not "codemned" completely but criticized yes.

That having been said their has not been a death attributed to that kind of person in 10 years according to the list you cite on wikipedia. It hardly seems reasonable to suggest that the anti-abortion violence problem is as big as the abuse of women in Muslim culture.

In conclusion once again we have moral relativism creeping into this discussion. We're all bad in some way shape or form so NO ONE is allowed to call attention to a cultural issue becuase if they do they're a bigot. I think that's sad.

Brian

This from Canadian Broadcaster Gordon Sinclair-June 5, 1973

The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since 1971 and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least-appreciated people in all the earth.

As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the Yangtse. Who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans did.

They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the Ganges and the Niger. Today, the rich bottom land of the Misssissippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a dollar to help. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries into help... Managua Nicaragua is one of the most recent examples. So far this spring, 59 American communities have been flattened by tornadoes. Nobody has helped.

The Marshall Plan .. the Truman Policy .. all pumped billions upon billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now, newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent war-mongering Americans.

I'd like to see one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplanes.

Come on... let's hear it! Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar or the Douglas 107? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all international lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or women on the moon?

You talk about Japanese technocracy and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times ... and safely home again. You talk about scandals and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everyone to look at. Even the draft dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, most of them ... unless they are breaking Canadian laws .. are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.

When the Americans get out of this bind ... as they will... who could blame them if they said 'the hell with the rest of the world'. Let someone else buy the Israel bonds, Let someone else build or repair foreign dams or design foreign buildings that won't shake apart in earthquakes.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name to you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble.

Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbours have faced it alone and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles.

I hope Canada is not one of these. But there are many smug, self-righteous Canadians. And finally, the American Red Cross was told at its 48th Annual meeting in New Orleans this morning that it was broke.

This year's disasters .. with the year less than half-over… has taken it all and nobody...but nobody... has helped.

If you would like to hear the audio of the broadcast, you can do it
here

Skip

I hope you mean Roosevelt. If it's another Teddy, he's too old and very well pickled.

Skip

Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:
I hope you mean Roosevelt. If it's another Teddy, he's too old and very well pickled.

Skip

FYI:  T.R. NEVER liked the nickname "Teddy."

According to my father, Theodore Roosevelt was a hero to my grandfather, even though they were contemporaries -- and both staunch Republicans.  Of course, now that I think of it, that was probably WHY T.R. was such a hero in my family.

John Glenn (DEMOCRAT) said this ----- It should make us all think a little:

There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq in January.  In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January. That's just one American city, about as deadly as the entire war-torn country of Iraq.

When some claim that President Bush shouldn't have started this war, tell them the following:

FDR (DEMOCRAT) led us into World War II.

Germany never attacked us; Japan did.  From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost ... an average of 112,500 per year.

Truman (DEMOCRAT) finished that war and started one in Korea. North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost ... an average of 18,334 per year.

John F. Kennedy (DEMOCRAT) started the Vietnam conflict in 1962.
Vietnam never attacked us.

Johnson (DEMOCRAT) turned Vietnam into a quagmire.
From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost ... an average of 5,800 per year.

Clinton (DEMOCRAT) went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent.  Bosnia never attacked us. He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple
occasions. This one is a fact that makes me mad as hell.

In the years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran, and, North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.  And the Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking.

But Wait, There's more.

It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno (DEMOCRAT) to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51-day operation

We've been looking for evidence for chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton (DEMOCRAT) to find the Rose law firm billing records.

It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick.

It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida!!!

Our Commander-In-Chief is doing a GREAT JOB!  The Military morale is high!

The biased media hopes we are too ignorant to realize the facts.

But Wait .......There's more!

JOHN GLENN (on the Senate floor - January 26, 2004)

Some people still don't understand why military personnel do what they do for a living. This exchange between Senators John Glenn and Senator Howard Metzenbaum is worth reading. Not only is it a pretty impressive impromptu speech, but it's also a good example of one man's explanation of why men and women in the armed services do what they do for a living.
 
This IS a typical, though sad, example of what some who have never served think of the military.

Senator Metzenbaum (speaking to Senator Glenn):
'How can you run for Senate when you've never held a real job?'

Senator Glenn (D-Ohio): 'I served 23 years in the United States Marine Corps.  I served through two wars. I flew 149 missions.  My plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire on 12 different  occasions. I was in the space program. It wasn't my checkbook, Howard; it was my life on the line. It was not a nine-to-five job, where I took time off to take the daily cash receipts to the bank.' 'I ask you to go with me, as I went the other day .. to a veteran's hospital and look those men ... with their mangled bodies ... in the eye, and tell THEM they didn't hold a job!

You go with me to the Space Program at NASA and go, as I have gone, to the widows and Orphans of Ed White, Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee ... and you look those kids in the eye and tell them that their DAD'S didn't hold a job.

You go with me on Memorial Day and you stand in Arlington National Cemetery, where I have more friends buried than I'd like to remember, and you watch those waving flags. You stand there, and you think about this nation, and you have the gall to tell  ME  that those people didn't have a job?

What about Metzenbaum?'

For those who don't remember During W.W.II, Howard Metzenbaum was an attorney representing the Communist Party in the USA.

If you can read this, thank a teacher.

If you are reading it in English thank a Veteran.