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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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composer/song writer confusion V2 - please vote again... |
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| Author |
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  | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,738 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting jykke: Quote:
I'm not offering this as an evidence on what is or is not a song. Just found this in the end credits of Star Trek: Nemesis.
 I rest my case. How can we NOT credit these as "song writers"? | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 413 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
I rest my case. How can we NOT credit these as "song writers"? Well, in Nemesis' case you can not credit them as such. Coldsmith and Courage did not write any ORIGINAL "songs" for Nemesis. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 940 |
| | Posted: | | | | Well jykke, there's a new twist I don't think anybody has thrown out yet. These "theme songs" are indeed NOT original for any film except the one for which they were first written for. I am still in favor of allowing the composers of these themes to be listed as a Song Writer though.
For a TV series though, a theme song could be considered original for the entire run of the series. | | | | Kevin |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting antolod: Quote:
Well jykke, there's a new twist I don't think anybody has thrown out yet. These "theme songs" are indeed NOT original for any film except the one for which they were first written for. I am still in favor of allowing the composers of these themes to be listed as a Song Writer though.
For a TV series though, a theme song could be considered original for the entire run of the series. Yes, I've seen that argument before against their inclusion at all. I think we need a rule tweaking there as well. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 940 |
| | Posted: | | | | In the rules forum I have proposed the changes to the crew table that would prevent this argument if they become implemented. We were running along smoothly until "the troubles" and it never got active after the buyout. | | | | Kevin |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,946 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting cvermeylen:
Quote:
A theme is part of the score. It may or may not be composed by the guy who is responsible for the complete score. So the composer of a theme gets credited as composer. To me it doesn't matter if he's written 1 theme or 100 themes for this show. I can't vote because I don't agree with either of the 2 options.
It's nice that you don't agree, but the rules simply don't allow otherwise. In this particular example, only John Cacavas is credited with "music by" (= score). The rules say that we're to use the "composer" credit "for the composer of the film's Original Score." So that's John Cacavas. The rules furthermore specify (in the "Incorrect Roles" column) that we cannot award the "composer" credit to "Songs by Song/Music writers". Mike Post's credit falls in that last category: "Songs by Music writers". As such, the rules very clearly spell out that we can not, under any circumstance, award a "composer" credit to Mike Post. So once again: either we come to an agreement on using the "song writer" field, or we're going to lose these credits. I did indeed read the rules. There are 2 possible credits for composer. The simple one is where a composer wrote the score for a movie or television show. The second is where a composer wrote music. This is not a complete score. For me, a main title theme is still a part of the score. Take for instance the movie "Shrunken Heads". This film is scored by Richard Band, but Danny Elfman wrote the main title theme. Both composers deserve credit. I use the same analogy for television series. The rules only say you can't use the composer credit for songs. Apart from Star Trek Enterprise, I wouldn't call any "Star Trek Main Title" a song. If this is the case for a television series, this would also be the case for any movie. The "Main Title" would be a song, and you have to credit every composer as a song writer for every movie. | | | View my collection at http://www.chriskepolis.be/home/dvd.htm
Chris |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,738 |
| | Posted: | | | | I completely agree with you: this is the point I've been trying to make all along. I, too, value the contribution of these "theme" writers, but the rules are very specific in that we can not give them a "composer" credit. That's why I've been trying to make a case to credit them as "song writers", simply because I do want to credit these people. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 413 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
... but the rules are very specific in that we can not give them a "composer" credit. You just keep saying this same thing over and over again. There is absolutely nothing on THEMES in the rules and we have here people who like to think THEME is part of the SCORE. So, what is the problem? And don't say THEME is a SONG. That's only in the Star Trek universe  |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,738 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting jykke: Quote:
You just keep saying this same thing over and over again. I am, yes. But some people still don't get it...  Quote:
There is absolutely nothing on THEMES in the rules and we have here people who like to think THEME is part of the SCORE. So, what is the problem? And don't say THEME is a SONG. That's only in the Star Trek universe I'll once again show you the rules on the "composer" credit:  If you can use that to justify a "composer" credit for Mike Post in the particular example this thread is about, I'd love to hear it. Again: the rules say we're to use the "composer" for the "composer of the film's Original Score." Based on his "Music by" credit (check the screenshots in my original post), that's John Cacavas, not Mike Post. On top of specifying who qualifies for a "composer" credit, the rules also specifically mention "Songs by Song/Music writers". Regardless of your definition of song, I really don't see how anyone could justify giving Mike Post a "composer credit". But again, if YOU do, I'd love to hear it. Edit: have you actually given any thought to what "Songs by Song/Music writers" means? Let's split that up, shall we? "Songs by Song writers", and "Songs by Music writers". Wouldn't you agree that the rules consider Mike Post a "music writer" on this one?. Wouldn't you then also agree that since the rules use the term: "Songs by Music writers", that the rules actually spell out that Mike Post's piece of music is a "song" for DVD Profiler purposes? Here we've been arguing about whether we can consider an instrumental piece of music as a "song" for DVD Profiler purposes, and what do you know: IT SAYS SO RIGHT THERE IN THE RULES!Everything I proposed here in the past couple of days, all comes directly from, and is supported 100% by the rules. Any other point of view is based by narrow, outside definitions which do not have any bearing on how we treat certain things in DVD Profiler world. So yes, if necessary, I'll keep repeating this 'till the end of time... | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,946 |
| | Posted: | | | | T!M,
All you try to convince us of is that a main theme is not part of the score and is called a song. As I have stated before, your "interpretation" of the rules would result in having to add a credit for almost every composer of a movie as songwriter also since the main theme is to be treated as a song, and almost every movie has a "main theme" or "main title" whatever you like to call it. The theme is an integral part of the score, if it happens to be composed by anyone else as the person who composed the rest of the score, than you have multiple composer credits.
Plain and simple vulcan logic if you ask me!
Greetz | | | View my collection at http://www.chriskepolis.be/home/dvd.htm
Chris |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,738 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting cvermeylen: Quote:
The theme is an integral part of the score, if it happens to be composed by anyone else as the person who composed the rest of the score, than you have multiple composer credits. I absolutely agree with you that the theme is an integral part of the score, but the rules don't allow multiple "composer" credits for both the person who provided the theme and the person who provided the score. See my post above yours - the rules clearly spell it out. "Composer" is only to be used for the "composer of the film's Original Score" (credited with either "music by", "music composed by", "score by" or "score composed by", according to the rules). Any other musical contributions either qualify as "Songs by Song writers" or as "Songs by Music writers". Both categories are called "songs" by the rules, and as such, they're awarded with "song writer" credits. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,694 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting cvermeylen:
Quote:
The theme is an integral part of the score, if it happens to be composed by anyone else as the person who composed the rest of the score, than you have multiple composer credits.
I absolutely agree with you that the theme is an integral part of the score, but the rules don't allow multiple "composer" credits for both the person who provided the theme and the person who provided the score. See my post above yours - the rules clearly spell it out. "Composer" is only to be used for the "composer of the film's Original Score" (credited with either "music by", "music composed by", "score by" or "score composed by", according to the rules). Any other musical contributions either qualify as "Songs by Song writers" or as "Songs by Music writers". Both categories are called "songs" by the rules, and as such, they're awarded with "song writer" credits. Then what's the problem with adding a third check-off for Theme? A Song is a specific, definable thing: it has music, AND it has lyrics. Most - the majority of - themes don't have lyrics, and thus cannot be songs. Those that do are called 'theme songs.' That third box would solve the problem for everybody. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again! |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,738 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Rifter: Quote:
Then what's the problem with adding a third check-off for Theme? A Song is a specific, definable thing: it has music, AND it has lyrics. Most - the majority of - themes don't have lyrics, and thus cannot be songs. Those that do are called 'theme songs.' That third box would solve the problem for everybody. I'd be absolutely fine by that - I have just shown you that it isn't NEEDED. If Ken chooses to add this, fine. But until then, we can handle these credits perfectly within the current rules. Have you read my post above, in which I show that the rules actually declare an instrumental piece of music is a "song" for DVD Profiler purposes? That's all there is to it. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 951 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting cvermeylen: Quote:
T!M,
All you try to convince us of is that a main theme is not part of the score and is called a song. As I have stated before, your "interpretation" of the rules would result in having to add a credit for almost every composer of a movie as songwriter also since the main theme is to be treated as a song, and almost every movie has a "main theme" or "main title" whatever you like to call it. The theme is an integral part of the score, if it happens to be composed by anyone else as the person who composed the rest of the score, than you have multiple composer credits.
Plain and simple vulcan logic if you ask me!
Greetz Here is the plain and simple vulcan logic. We give credit to crew as credited by the rules. For someone to be credited as the composer they have to be credited with writing the film score, plain and simple. If the composer of the score is credited with also writing an original song for the film he is also credited as a Song Writer. The logic your trying to use that every Tim is trying to justify every opening music during titles is a Song, is incorrect, this is not what Tim is trying to do. And since we do not allow uncredited crew even if he was to try and would be allowed by the rules. "The theme is an integral part of the score" personally I don't care if it is integral or not. I go by what the credits say only give Composer credit to those that are credited with writing the Score. Not the theme music. Right now as the way the rules are written Theme music is by the rules defination a Song. This would not be the first time we had rules disagree with personal interputation or defy Vulcan logic. | | | Are you local?
This is a local shop the strangers you would bring would not understand us, our customs, our local ways. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,946 |
| | Posted: | | | | I will try to explain my statement one last time.
If a composer uses a theme written by someone else, then the composer of the original theme does not get a credit.
If a composer writes a single piece of music, and you hear that music in an episode, than he "composed" for the show. That single piece of music might be in the middle of the show, or it might be the opening music. I still fail to see how a piece of music without lyrics falls in the category of a song.
Maybe we will get an update of the rules to tell otherwise, but the way read the rules now, I am not doing anything wrong. Should Ken decide to change the rules the way they are now, I will gladly follow them.
Btw, have a nice weekend all. | | | View my collection at http://www.chriskepolis.be/home/dvd.htm
Chris |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 37 |
| | Posted: | | | | Okay, having never seen Columbo on US television I just have to ask: Isn't the Mystery Movie Theme the music that played before the show started and as such not even present on the DVDs?? Or was it somehow also incorporated in the score? | | | | Last edited: by CPreischl |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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