Many times a theme can be incorporated into the score but, that really doesn't matter.  We should only profile the credits as credited.

Quoting Tracer:

Quote:
Many times a theme can be incorporated into the score but, that really doesn't matter.  We should only profile the credits as credited.

Correct. To everyone who still isn't convinced - the rules themselves refer to instrumental themes as "songs by music writers":



In this single line out of the credits table, the contribution rules name three different musical credits: score, songs by song writers, and songs by music writers. We're all clear on what score and songs by song writers are meant for, so think deep and hard for a minute about what the rules could possibly mean with songs by music writers... It can only refer to instrumental themes (or any other piece of original, instrumental music). Since the rules refer to these instrumental themes as songs by music writers, it's obvious that these should also be credited using the "song writer" credit.

Seeing that the rules consider Mike Post's 'Mystery Movie Theme' as songs by music writers, then why do I still get two no-votes on my 'Columbo' contribution? If anyone really feels I'm interpreting the rules incorrectly, could they then please state what they feel the rules do mean with songs by music writers? Keep in mind that original score and original songs are already accounted for.

John you might want to look at the credited as colum for Song Writers. There is only a description of what a song writer is.

I'm still baffled by all this. I tried to show that the rules actually support crediting the writer of a "theme" with a "song writer" credit, the results of this (and the previous) poll show that the support is there, but Skip's no-votes keep the change from being accepted. As I said I would, I am now trying to simply remove Mike Post's credit, as regardless of debating for what we can use the "song writer" credits, the rules REALLY don't allow Mike Post a joint "composer" credit together with the actual composer of the score.

Once more: the contribution rules clearly state that the "composer" credit is to be "used for the composer of the film's Original Score." The rules go on to name four possible "job descriptions", and they are: "Music by", "Music Composed by", "Score by" and "Score Composed by". Indeed, the composers are credited in the opening credits of these 'Columbo' movies with "music by" (look back at the screenshots in the first post of this thread). Mike Post does NOT appear in the opening credits, but gets a separate credit in the end credits, saying: "Mystery Movie Theme by Mike Post". Currently, the profile makes it seem that Mike Post scored the movie together with the actual composers of the score, and that is clearly not true.

So: Mike Post's credit does NOT match one of the four "job descriptions" that qualify for "composer" in the rules - not even close! He is NOT "the composer of the film's Original Score" - John Cacavas did that all by himself. So, regarless of all "song" debate, I thought it was at least very clear that the rules really don't allow us to credit Mike Post with "composer". Still, I get another no-vote from Skip, saying:

Quoting Skip:

Quote:
Previously declined twice, with differnt argument, Theme is part of Overall score

This is, once again, a vote blatantly against the rules (Mike Post's credit does not match, not even close, any of the job descriptions that the rules allow us to use for "composer"), along with a blatant lie ("Previously declined twice"). This is just a vile lie to try and influence the screeners - I have twice tried to change Mike Post's credit to "song writer" (which didn't get approved thanks to Skip's no-votes), but I have never tried to remove his credit altogether before. This is clearly a rather different update, and as such, it has never been declined.

So, Skip won't allow a change to "song writer", and he won't allow the removal of this credit. Does that mean that we're simply stuck with these incorrect "composer" credits? His note "Theme is part of Overall score" is nothing more than a personal preference, which is not in ANY way supported by the rules. I even happen to share his preference - that's why I tried to retain his credit as "song writer". But giving Mike Post a joint "composer" credit together with the actual composer of the movie's score, is simply not allowed by the rules.

Quoting Martin_Zuidervliet:

Quote:
So Skip is an @$h0L€, what else is new...

Now that didn't add anything constructive to the discussion, did it?
Please try to keep the discussion on a slightly more mature level!

Very adult, Martin.

Tim, you are trying to isolate the Theme from the score and it is a component of the overall music score period, nothing more or less. It is not song, in this case it is an instrumental piece of music. I don't how it works today, it's been awhile since  I purchased a soundtrack of any kind, but it used to be that a typical soundtrack also included the theme music. For examples, centuries ago  Iused to own a couple of very well known TV vinyl soundtracks, Mission: Impossible and Hawaii Five-O both of which opened with what...the theme and then included whatever selcetions they chose to include from the shows. What it looks to me, Tim is that you are now pitching a tantrum, at first I thought about voting neutral on your contribution but as I thought about it, it dawned on me that you were dead wrong in this case, it does not mean you would be dead wrong in every case of this nature, I can think of a few that would apply, but not this one. You make arefernce to trying to change MY data, you can't change my data, only I can do that, as to the source of the Online its irrelevant, if you had a valid argument or your correction was sound I would Yes, in this case neither is true. I could make a comparable childish accusation directed at you, especially in view of two prior declines, but I won't do that.

Sorry, Tim. Your logic on this is just not logical. But as I noted there are titles I can think of that woulld apply and i would probably vote no worse than neutral, there are couple of titles I can think of that have not been released that could even be considered questionable.

Skip

Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:
Tim, you are trying to isolate the Theme from the score and it is a component of the overall music score period, nothing more or less. It is not song, in this case it is an instrumental piece of music. I don't how it works today, it's been awhile since  I purchased a soundtrack of any kind, but it used to be that a typical soundtrack also included the theme music. For examples, centuries ago  Iused to own a couple of very well known TV vinyl soundtracks, Mission: Impossible and Hawaii Five-O both of which opened with what...the theme and then included whatever selcetions they chose to include from the shows. What it looks to me, Tim is that you are now pitching a tantrum, at first I thought about voting neutral on your contribution but as I thought about it, it dawned on me that you were dead wrong in this case, it does not mean you would be dead wrong in every case of this nature, I can think of a few that would apply, but not this one. You make arefernce to trying to change MY data, you can't change my data, only I can do that, as to the source of the Online its irrelevant, if you had a valid argument or your correction was sound I would Yes, in this case neither is true. I could make a comparable childish accusation directed at you, especially in view of two prior declines, but I won't do that.

Sorry, Tim. Your logic on this is just not logical. But as I noted there are titles I can think of that woulld apply and i would probably vote no worse than neutral, there are couple of titles I can think of that have not been released that could even be considered questionable.

Skip

You can talk all you want, but the fact of the matter is that the rules very clearly spell out who we can and can not award "composer" credits. You know as well as I do that your vote is against the rules. Like you, I also value the contribution of the "theme" writer, and so I tried to make a case to credit him as "song writer" - something I feel the rules allow. You wouldn't hear of it, in which case the only solution is to remove the "theme" writers credit.



Once again: looking back at the screenshots in my original post, and then looking at the rules on the "composer" credit above, can you honestly argue that the rules allow you to award a "composer" credit to Mike Post? Try to put aside your personal preference, but look at the RULES. If you can justify your no-vote in any way based on the rules - not just stating how you'd like things to be - I'd love to hear it. If you can't, I'd like you to remove your childish no-vote.

Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:
It is an integral part of the overall score, Tim. Very simple.The rules do not spell out that there is ONLY one Composer of a score, such a statement would be ludicrous. nor do they define a score, you clearly have a different definition than I do. I am sorry, Tim. They say only "Original" score, is the theme Original to the title answer...yes it is. i sthe remainder of the Music Original to the title...yes it is. Therefoer we have two Composers.

You have pretty clearly turned this into a personal issue, complete with hostility, veiled attacks and insinuations. For me it has nothing to do with you, it has to do with how I assess the Contribution and that is my opinion and I believe the logic is solid. Any feelings I might have personally, are totally irrelevant and not allowed by myself to be included in the process. As I said my initial reaction was to vote neutral but then I realized you were wrong...simple and whether you like it or not is also of no relevance or import.

Skip

Do we really need another poll to establish this, then? The five 'Columbo' movies in this set were scored by either John Cacavas (two movies) or Patrick Williams (three movies). Separate from these people scoring the movies, Mike Post contributed a single "theme". Mike Post did not collaborate with John Cacavas or Patrick Williams on the actual score. Mike Post's "theme" isn't even used by the "composers" as part of the score - I understand it can only be heard over the opening or closing credits (depends on the movie). While I value his contribution - locally I gave him a "song writer" credit as I'm convinced that's what the rules tell us to do - he certainly did NOT compose the score for any of these movies. While I understand your line of reasoning, it's personal preference, nothing more, nothing less. You say: "you clearly have a different definition than I do", where you should have said: "I clearly have a different definition than the rules". Shall I start another poll?

Edit: I obviously need to remind you that YOU are the one turning this into a personal issue, complete with hostility, veiled attacks and insinuations, not me. You seem to be confused on this...