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Invelos Forums->General: General Discussion |
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Mircosoft Office |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Alien Redrum: Quote:
Quote:
I don't care either way, but don't try to justify you not following the terms of service simply because you find the restrictions unreasonable. That's cool if you do, but if you were to provide the license to someone outside your household, whether you like it or not, you are in the wrong.
I don't believe I ever claimed to be in the right, only that I don't consider it piracy or theft if somebody chose to do that. In fact, I am fairly sure that I said it was a violation of the EULA. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 1,272 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Alien Redrum: Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
If, however, I buy a multi-user license, one that allows me to install the program onto 3 different machines, owned by 3 different people, MS suddenly cares who those people are...they must reside in my home. To me, that is an unreasonable restriction and one I do not accept. In my opinion, as long as I only install it on 3 machines, it's none of their business who those machines belong to as they still got payed.
I'm sorry, but you not liking the restriction and your opinion of it being none of their business is irrelevant. If they say "In order to use our software, you must agree to these terms," you either agree to them or not, regardless of what you think of them. If you agree to them, you follow their terms. If you don't, you don't purchase the product. It's black and white (as far as whether or not you intend to follow the agreement you made with Microsoft).
I don't care either way, but don't try to justify you not following the terms of service simply because you find the restrictions unreasonable. That's cool if you do, but if you were to provide the license to someone outside your household, whether you like it or not, you are in the wrong.
This, of course, if you have the Home Edition, which explicitly states in the TOS: 12. HOME AND STUDENT SOFTWARE. For software marked “Home and Student” edition, you may install one copy of the software on up to three licensed devices in your household for use by people for whom that is their primary residence.
This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. It's that black and white. OK HITLER!!! | | | HDTV: 52" Toshiba Regza 52XV545U AVR: Onkyo TR-707
Speakers: Paradigm Monitor 7 v6, CC-190 & Atom Monitors Subwoofer: Definitive Technology ProSub 800
BD/DVD: Oppo BDP-93 (Region Free) HD PVR: Motorola DXC3400 500GB w/ 1TB Expander
BD/DVD/Game: 250GB PS3 Slim DVD/Game: 250GB XBox 360 Elite Special Edition (Black) Game: Wii
Remote: Logitech Harmony One w/ PS3 Adapter WHS: Acer H341 Windows Home Server |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 485 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
If, however, I buy a multi-user license, one that allows me to install the program onto 3 different machines, owned by 3 different people, MS suddenly cares who those people are...they must reside in my home. To me, that is an unreasonable restriction and one I do not accept.... Well, if we can put the black-and-white prinzipienreiterei backstage for the moment, let's rephrase the problem. When I bought a Family (!) 3x upgrade pack to Win7 a few years ago in the U.K., I do not recall any specifics in the advertising about a "household". It may have been in a EULA which was only disclosed AFTER the sale, but as said before, such a EULA is irrelevant. Please note that common law already makes it illegal to copy and distribute software on your own, just about everywhere in the world. No EULA needed for that. The nice thing is, 'family' has multiple meanings. So, my brother is family, of course, but also, of course, has his own household. Judged by the advertising before and at the moment of sale, it would be legal to hand him down an unused copy. If you believe in that EULA, it wouldn't -- but that would only be according to those foreign (non-European) law systems where a EULA still does mean something even if not disclosed before the sale. Perhaps the USA is one of those, perhaps not; I do not know. That said, it isn't very practical to proclaim a EULA valid if you haven't researched your local law system. Now if the restriction to a household was known BEFORE the sale I cannot support our MadMartian's POV. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Even if you're mad and from Mars. I for one do not like Brussel sprouts so I won't buy them. Ever. As with office software, plenty of alternative solutions available. But when AFTER the purchase... BTW your family does not need to reside in your home. A home can have multiple households, one household can have multiple homes (but then one is probably so rich it'll be call residences  ). One other thing though. Some made allegations about 'the police storming throught the door'. Be realistic about that. Do not interpret it as condoning piracy, but do realise handing down a valid but as yet unused license key to another person for use is for all practical purposes hard to track down for the manufacturer, even then must be proven to be illegal (EULA validity(!), but also the manufacturer wasn't a contract party at the point of sale, that was between the retailer and the buyer, so has no documentation other then 'suspicions' even tough there isn't a licence key used twice) and the combined actions of lawyers, police and court(s) would be quite cost-prohibitive. As argued above, such a hand down can be legal or can not be, depending on the laws of the land and the circumstances of purchase. Check that first. It is a bit like the recent upheaval on the alledgedly giving away for free by Adobe of its out-of-date CS2 software. Initially even Adobe staff were saying it was technically not for free, but FAPP it was and Adobe wasn't going to go after such technical misuse; then Adobe reverted. For more info, just google on "adobe giving away cs2 for free" and read the various things around on the net. | | | Eric
If it is important, say it. Otherwise, let silence speak. | | | | Last edited: by eommen |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,730 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Alien Redrum: Quote:
I'm sorry, but you not liking the restriction and your opinion of it being none of their business is irrelevant. If they say "In order to use our software, you must agree to these terms," you either agree to them or not, regardless of what you think of them. So if the EULA would ask you to eat three raw onions a day in order to use the software you would happily eat them, wouldn't you? The problem with those "Agreements" is that the partners here are not on eye-level. That's why (at least) European Courts are considering them to be irrelevant. | | | It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?
Registrant since 05/22/2003 |
| | Registered: August 23, 2008 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,656 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Lewis_Prothero: Quote:
Quoting Alien Redrum:
Quote:
I'm sorry, but you not liking the restriction and your opinion of it being none of their business is irrelevant. If they say "In order to use our software, you must agree to these terms," you either agree to them or not, regardless of what you think of them.
So if the EULA would ask you to eat three raw onions a day in order to use the software you would happily eat them, wouldn't you?
The problem with those "Agreements" is that the partners here are not on eye-level. That's why (at least) European Courts are considering them to be irrelevant. Hey, it's the EULA. Buy it and do it or don't and don't. It's that simple. Really, it is. You either enter an agreement or don't. If I have to eat three raw onions a day to use the software, I'm not going to buy the software. BAM! This isn't exactly rocket science. Invelos, the land of mountains out of molehills.  | | | Reviewer, HorrorTalk.com
"I also refuse to document CLT results and I pay my bills to avoid going to court." - Sam, keeping it real, yo. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Alien Redrum: Quote:
Hey, it's the EULA. Buy it and do it or don't and don't. It's that simple. Really, it is. You either enter an agreement or don't.
If I have to eat three raw onions a day to use the software, I'm not going to buy the software. BAM!
This isn't exactly rocket science.
Invelos, the land of mountains out of molehills. I have no problem with this position as long as the EULA is printed on the OUTSIDE of the box, which it isn't. To read the EULA, you have to do one of two things; open the package which, for every store in my area, makes the item nonreturnable or find the EULA online, somethng not easily done in the store. So, for the average user they won't know what the EULA is until after they buy the product and, if after doing so they decide they don't agree with the EULA, they have to jump through MS hoops in order to get a refund that can take up a month to receive. That, in my opinion, is unreasonable. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: August 23, 2008 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,656 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting Alien Redrum:
Quote:
Hey, it's the EULA. Buy it and do it or don't and don't. It's that simple. Really, it is. You either enter an agreement or don't.
If I have to eat three raw onions a day to use the software, I'm not going to buy the software. BAM!
This isn't exactly rocket science.
Invelos, the land of mountains out of molehills.
I have no problem with this position as long as the EULA is printed on the OUTSIDE of the box, which it isn't. To read the EULA, you have to do one of two things; open the package which, for every store in my area, makes the item nonreturnable or find the EULA online, somethng not easily done in the store.
So, for the average user they won't know what the EULA is until after they buy the product and, if after doing so they decide they don't agree with the EULA, they have to jump through MS hoops in order to get a refund that can take up a month to receive. That, in my opinion, is unreasonable. Take it up with Microsoft. My point still stands. It's not rocket science. | | | Reviewer, HorrorTalk.com
"I also refuse to document CLT results and I pay my bills to avoid going to court." - Sam, keeping it real, yo. |
| | Registered: March 17, 2007 | | Posts: 853 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting Alien Redrum:
Quote:
Hey, it's the EULA. Buy it and do it or don't and don't. It's that simple. Really, it is. You either enter an agreement or don't.
If I have to eat three raw onions a day to use the software, I'm not going to buy the software. BAM!
This isn't exactly rocket science.
Invelos, the land of mountains out of molehills.
I have no problem with this position as long as the EULA is printed on the OUTSIDE of the box, which it isn't. To read the EULA, you have to do one of two things; open the package which, for every store in my area, makes the item nonreturnable or find the EULA online, somethng not easily done in the store.
So, for the average user they won't know what the EULA is until after they buy the product and, if after doing so they decide they don't agree with the EULA, they have to jump through MS hoops in order to get a refund that can take up a month to receive. That, in my opinion, is unreasonable. In the United States this is the most common "Household" version of the software. http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Office-Home-Student-2010/dp/B00337D8U6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360779050&sr=8-1&keywords=ms+office+2010 Click on the picture and you will see quite clearly in the middle it says "X3 Family Pack for noncommercial use*" On the back the asterisk is defined as "Licensed for installation of 3 home PC's. Not for use in any commercial nonprofit, or revenue generating activities, or by any government organization." The box has a code right beneath the asterisk that can be photographed by a cell phone and used with a mobi app. It also includes the website where the user agreement resides in full. Even in 2010 the majority of us were carrying smart phones. So it wasn't really that hard to go and look up the answers to any questions about the software and its use. I used to work for a major electronics chain and if someone asked to show them the EULA for the most popular software we carried which included ms office we printed it out and gave it to them no questions asked. As for what you consider as unreasonable is subjective. If I did not research what I was purchasing and had to wait a month to get my money back because of it I would wait the month and the only person I would be pissed at would be myself for not doing my due diligence in the first place. |
| | Registered: March 17, 2007 | | Posts: 853 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting DoubleDownAgain: Quote:
Quoting Alien Redrum:
Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
If, however, I buy a multi-user license, one that allows me to install the program onto 3 different machines, owned by 3 different people, MS suddenly cares who those people are...they must reside in my home. To me, that is an unreasonable restriction and one I do not accept. In my opinion, as long as I only install it on 3 machines, it's none of their business who those machines belong to as they still got payed.
I'm sorry, but you not liking the restriction and your opinion of it being none of their business is irrelevant. If they say "In order to use our software, you must agree to these terms," you either agree to them or not, regardless of what you think of them. If you agree to them, you follow their terms. If you don't, you don't purchase the product. It's black and white (as far as whether or not you intend to follow the agreement you made with Microsoft).
I don't care either way, but don't try to justify you not following the terms of service simply because you find the restrictions unreasonable. That's cool if you do, but if you were to provide the license to someone outside your household, whether you like it or not, you are in the wrong.
This, of course, if you have the Home Edition, which explicitly states in the TOS: 12. HOME AND STUDENT SOFTWARE. For software marked “Home and Student” edition, you may install one copy of the software on up to three licensed devices in your household for use by people for whom that is their primary residence.
This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. It's that black and white.
OK HITLER!!! The name calling really is NOT necessary. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,217 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Alien Redrum: Quote:
If they say "In order to use our software, you must agree to these terms," you either agree to them or not, regardless of what you think of them. If my highest court says that those EULA are completely negligible I don't care for them. It's that black and white. cya, Mithi | | | | Mithi's little XSLT tinkering - the power of XML --- DVD-Profiler Mini-Wiki |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Alien Redrum: Quote:
Take it up with Microsoft. My point still stands. It's not rocket science. Never said it was rocket science, just unreasonable. As to your point, well, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Lord Of The Sith: Quote:
Click on the picture and you will see quite clearly in the middle it says "X3 Family Pack for noncommercial use*" On the back the asterisk is defined as "Licensed for installation of 3 home PC's. Not for use in any commercial nonprofit, or revenue generating activities, or by any government organization." Where, exactly, does it say those home computers must be in my home? Quote:
As for what you consider as unreasonable is subjective. Indeed, which is why I said it was my opinion...not a fact, just my opinion. I know that other people have differing opinions, and I respect that fact. It is unfortunate that I, and those that agree with me, aren't given that same respect. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 17, 2007 | | Posts: 853 |
| | Posted: | | | | As usual you are ignoring half of a post to try and prove your point. I am done with this argument and I will not be responding again as you will just ignore whatever information doesn't fit your narrative. As for your opinion you live in the United States and are governed by US Copyright which claims EULA is a legal way to enforce copyright of a software. Everything that has been said about ignoring EULA, since it is not on the packaging of the software, by our friends in Europe doesn't apply to us. As I said before I don't get what you don't understand at this point other than you are attempting to craft a narrative which fits what YOU want to believe. |
| | Registered: May 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | If I buy something and don't want it anymore - why can't I give it away?
I will never purchase item(s) from any company that demands that I just throw something in the garbage because I no longer use it. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,272 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Lord Of The Sith: Quote:
The name calling really is NOT necessary.  He knew I was kidding... and you would too if you had clicked on the link.  | | | HDTV: 52" Toshiba Regza 52XV545U AVR: Onkyo TR-707
Speakers: Paradigm Monitor 7 v6, CC-190 & Atom Monitors Subwoofer: Definitive Technology ProSub 800
BD/DVD: Oppo BDP-93 (Region Free) HD PVR: Motorola DXC3400 500GB w/ 1TB Expander
BD/DVD/Game: 250GB PS3 Slim DVD/Game: 250GB XBox 360 Elite Special Edition (Black) Game: Wii
Remote: Logitech Harmony One w/ PS3 Adapter WHS: Acer H341 Windows Home Server |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Lord Of The Sith: Quote:
As usual you are ignoring half of a post to try and prove your point. I didn't ignore it to try and prove a point, as I have no point to prove, I simply chose not to go down that road with you. Quote:
I am done with this argument and I will not be responding again as you will just ignore whatever information doesn't fit your narrative. What narrative? I stated an opinion, not a narrative. Quote:
As for your opinion you live in the United States and are governed by US Copyright which claims EULA is a legal way to enforce copyright of a software. Everything that has been said about ignoring EULA, since it is not on the packaging of the software, by our friends in Europe doesn't apply to us. I don't believe I ever said it did. Quote:
As I said before I don't get what you don't understand at this point other than you are attempting to craft a narrative which fits what YOU want to believe. What is this narrative you are talking about? As for why you don't get it, well, that might be because you are confusing understanding with agreement. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
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Invelos Forums->General: General Discussion |
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