Quoting DarklyNoon:

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To skipnet and HAL, it is really funny that you believe what CNN is telling you.

CNN is the last place to go if you want the facts! 

Quoting DJ Doena:

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Saddam was a Sunnite, he suppressed both the Shiites and the Kurds. It should have been quite obvious what would happen (and what happened) to anyone who wanted to see.

Hmmm....so it was OK for Saddam to "suppress" the Shiites and Kurds (or in other words murder them by the hundreds of thousands), but it is not OK for them (the Shiites and Kurds) to fight the Sunnis and resolve their differences.

Interesting perspective.

Quoting DJ Doena:

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Quoting hal9g:

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Hmmm....so it was OK for Saddam to "suppress" the Shiites and Kurds (or in other words murder them by the hundreds of thousands), but it is not OK for them (the Shiites and Kurds) to fight the Sunnis and resolve their differences.

Interesting perspective.

I didn't say it was ok, I never even thought it. But when you take up the task to remove such a man, it becomes your responsibility, whether you like it or not.

You can not say "he was the bad guy because he's seen to the executions personally and we are the good guys because we only let them kill each other". And (I hate to be nitpick-y) the main slaughters happened while he was "your buddy" and you gave him the weapons with which he killed both Shiits and Kurds and you even covered for him.

These folks have been killing each other for thousands of years.  Don't make it sound like they just started when the U.S. went in to remove a brutal dictator.

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There's another point one shouldn't forget: What we call Iraq today is practically the birthplace of mankind. People have lived and settled there for over 4,000 years. There are a proud people just as you are. But for them you look like a bullying child (you've just had your bicentennial after all) who wants to explain to the grandfather how he is supposed to live. It's not just about Saddam, it's also about western arrogance. I don't really understand arab culture either, but I don't dismiss it just because of it.

Some would argue that the "birth" of mankind was actually in Africa, but I digress.

We really don't give a damn how they behave as long as they keep it within their own borders, don't threaten their neighbors (Kuwait, etc) or our allies (even including Germany  ).

When a dictator with such low regard for human life such as Saddam starts (or is believed to start) a program to develp nuclear weapons or deploys biological weapons (on the Kurds) and then threatens that destabilizes the entire region.

The reality is that geo-political alignments change all the time depending on what regime is in power.  If you do not understand that the Shah was an ally and therfore we supported Iran in those years and then things changed...not from our side, but from theirs.  You really couldn't expect us to stay buds with a country that kidnapped 52 of our citizens and held them for 444 days!  The subsequent regime was not an ally, so naturally, our alignment shifted.  Why wouldn't it?  The enemies of your enemies become your friends.

That's just the way the world works.  It would be great if we could all "just get along", but we do not live in the Utopia that the left thinks we do.

The U.S. is not interested in annihilating all Muslims everywhere.  However, it is the stated goal of fundamentalist Muslims to annihilate us (all infidels).  If you don't believe that they are serious, then you are in serious denial.  Just look at the record of terrorist attacks over the past 30 years (long before the current conflict in Iraq).

Appeasing these people will not result in them stopping their jihad!  It will only encourage them.

Quoting DJ Doena:

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Quoting bbursiek:

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I have to add at least a quick comment or two. Donnie - your notion that war never solved anything is brutally naive and dangerous -- as I've heard others say -- WAR solved HITLER (side note - it also solved Imperial Japan which also brutally murdered several million Chinese and others). If other nations hadn't gone to war with Hitler -- most notably the US -- he would have brutally murdered even more Jews and others than he did.

When you look into your heart: Do you really believe that the US would have entered the war if the Japanese hadn't attacked Pearl (or anything else on US soil for that matter) and the Nazis hadn't declared war soon after? The war had been going on for over two years at that time (01-Sep-1939 vs 07-Dec-1941).

Actually, I do believe it would have happened eventually.  As I recall, many American's went over there to help in the fight long before we were attacked.

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I am really glad you did enter the war, it was necessary to stop these murdering bastards. But still you didn't do anything until you were threatened directly.

This is true but we didn't just respond to the country that attacked us.  We went to war on two fronts.  Had we simply dealt with Japan, our part in the war would have been over a lot sooner and with fewer casualties.

Rory,

Great recollection about your father -- I hope he was thanked profusely for his service. Anyone that did that much for his country and for freedom generally deserves tremendous respect.

Karsten,

I have to agree with Unicus on the US involvement in WW II it was inevitable that we would have gotten in at some point just like WW I. Not only did some Americans volunteer to fight before our official involvement our country sent tremendous supplies to the Allied powers before then and we escorted convoys part way across the Atlantic even when were neutral. One of our ships was sunk by a U-Boat before Pearl Harbor. FDR was doing everything he could to help but there remained strong opposition in the US to getting involved in the war before the Japanese attack.

I personally think it's a shame we didn't get involved earlier and that we weren't prepared to help very much right away even when we did get involved. It should be noted that during 1939-1941 the US did embark on a major military buildup (at FDR's urging) because of the war in Europe and the threat of Japan. Quite a few ships, planes, tanks, etc. were built before we got involved. So it's not like we didn't use those two years to accomplish something useful. However we were still woefully unprepared for a 2 front war in 1941 when were struck by Japan.

The one thing Hitler did I'm actually glad for was his decision to formally declare war on America after Pearl Harbor -- absent that what I'll call an idiotic mistake -- we still might not have gone to war with Germany in 1941 -- there would have been greater pressure for us to just go after Japan and leave Germany alone at that point. In other words Hitler's decision to declare war on us ended that discussion before it began and we ended up going primarily after Germany at first (though we ended up with enough forces to effectively fight offensively on both fronts eventually).

As to your comments on Iraq -- I would note that I don't think we can be blamed for the deaths caused by others actions. I did not say the America doesn't have an obligation of sorts to help the Iraqi people deal with the aftermath of the invasion. I think we do and we should stay as long as needed to fullfill that commitment. People in Iraq are counting on us to come through for them and stay for now and I think we should for their benefit and quite frankly for ours in the long run.

You comment wqas we invaded a sovereign nation and de-installed the government. That is functionally an accurate statement but then again Hitler was a democratically elected at one point also and removing him was certainly warranted -- Saddam wasn't as bad as Hitler but I would argue not for lack of trying. Saddam did not become dictator of a nation capable of the kind of power that Germany was at that time -- if he had he certainly would have caused more harm in my estimation.

It is true we provided some assistance to Saddam in the 1980's but we hardly supplied all or even most of his arms -- he was supplied extensively by the Russians during those years and his military in Gulf War I was composed mostly of Russian planes, tanks, and guns etc. (His army in Gulf War II was still primarily outdated Russian equipment left over from before Gulf War I). Even France supplied him with some weaponry if my memory serves. However whatever assistance we provided was obviously a mistake and one we paid for dearly (as did his own people).

In any case I respect your right to disagree on these issues and I am grateful Germany has become a friend and ally of my country for these many decades. Even while we disagree over Iraq we still are working together in Afghanistan and Kosovo and more generally through NATO which I think is a good thing. Hopefully that friendship and cooperation will continue wherever possible in the future.

Brian

Thanks Unicus, Like you I have an interest in aircraft combat air craft in particular. Also while in college I minored in Military History. You definitely are well read. 

Rory

Skip,

That is correct many Americans who flew for the RCAF did so under assumed names, my father flew under the name of Robin Simclair. I remember when he passed away I and my brother went thru an old footlocker of his and found his decorations from the Brits and Canadians, to our surprise one of them was the Victoria Cross, which I believe is the British Empire's highest award for gallantry.

Rory

Skip,
My personal favorite was the P-38 the Luftwaffe called the Forked Tailed Devil. In the hands of a skilled pilot it could do amazing things.

Rory