It was quite interesting to see the opinions of some of our us-American fellow users. What was worrying me and that was the only reason why I, being non-American stepped into this discussion, was that I found it incredibly single sided and I was waiting for the American 'voice of reason' (IMHO) to enter this discussion. It did not happen.

I rest my case.

Quoting Kulju:

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After reading a seven pages of this "conversation" I'm very happy to live in a country where you don't have to have a gun to feel safe at home (or in the streets). I think this thread just tells a sad story about present state of the US sociaty.

Some people sees it as a disadvantage that we have though, much, much higher taxes around here, which of course pays us quite well functioning education system, social care, health care...etc. so we don't have so much of those problems where you have a need for a gun to solve them...

IMO that's not so difficult to achieve when your entire country's population can fit into the state of Minesota and your average pre-tax income is $40.00 an hour. Try doing it in a country who's population is around 300,000,000 and where the average pre-tax income is $18.75 an hour. You're comparing apples to oranges.

Quoting 8ballMax:

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IMO that's not so difficult to achieve when your entire country's population can fit into the state of Minesota and your average pre-tax income is $40.00 an hour. Try doing it in a country who's population is around 300,000,000 and where the average pre-tax income is $18.75 an hour. You're comparing apples to oranges.

Finland is like Wisconsin, to give you some idea. Population is pretty much the same, population for biggest city is almoust the same. And weather is similar. Though Finland is 2 times bigger. But i agree with you, you cant compare two countries which are very diffrent in many aspects.

I think that individual states making laws on guns wount have much effect, since the criminals can just get the gun from the state next to it. So if US wants to get stricter rules, it should apply to all states. Personally i think the biggest problem in US gun laws is, that you can sell a weapon to someone without any paperwork whatsoever. So a person that has the right to buy a gun, can do so and then resell it to someone that doesnt. I think even if you would have all rights to own a gun as you do now, but would make it illegal to sell a weapon to someone without the paperwork going through police, the amount of illegal guns would go down and it would be more difficult for criminals to obtain a gun.

Quoting mdnitoil:

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We've got a huge amount of infrastructure (roads, sewage, power, etc.) to maintain pretty much across the entire continent.  As a result, all of our service costs tend to get magnified.

Finland also has a very low density. Thats why you dont see us in top of any environmentally friendly country lists.

Quoting 8ballMax:

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You are totally misinformed. Here, at least in California, it is illegal to sell a firearm to any individual without performing a transfer of ownership through an authorized dealer. The buyer must meet the same legal requirements as the original owner. In order to purchase a handgun here in California, one must first take a firearms safety test, pass a Department of Justice background check and there is a 10 day waiting period, some call it a "cooling off period", before one can legally obtain a handgun.

The curses of google. I got my info from there (Page 2 the images text.):
http://hei.unige.ch/sas/files/portal/issueareas/measures/Measur_pdf/OSI%20GunReport.pdf

Quoting 8ballMax:

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BTW, no laws, no matter how strict, will prevent a criminal from obtaining a firearm by illegal means...either by theft or through the black market.

Yes, but you can lower the amount of weapons in black market. Also if its hard to get, your petty criminals that rob 7/11's will not know the people that sell them.

Quoting northbloke:

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Another dig at me? How mature! 

Tell me Skip, if I'm a communist because I gave you a red arrow because I believe you made a racist slur - what does that make you when you gave me three red arrows out of spite and retaliation only 11 days ago?

Did I mention your name, north? Do yuou have a guilty conscience? You see unlike you I will not conduct a purge while hiding behind an anonymous screen, throwing red arrows and abusing the system, that quite frankly is cowardly behavior beside abusing the system. I, instead will will take you head on and directly. I would suggest you try behaving as an adult, your behavior for a long time now does not become you.

Th biggest problem you have is that an offense of some sort can be read into near anything. There was nothing racist, racial or insulting to anyone PERSONALLY. Yet we all must behave as Comrade Northbloke dicctates, and HE is the arbiter of whether a post is racist....NOT!!!!! I made some observations as it relates to behavior, I could make some observations relative to other segments fo society to, then you could accuse me of ageism, sexism or any other ism you might want to invent. I suggest that instead of inventing non existent isms, you deal with what someone says and stop applying your rather stupid iand insulting interpretations. I will defend your behavior to act like a total jackass, say anything wish right or wrong. But your implication that I am a racist is simply way beyond the pale.  Grow up, child, and learn... you have way too much you don't know anything about.

To the rest of you my deepest apologies for having to put up with the behavior of this narrow minded citizen of Her Majesty and having to read my rather angry responses to utter stupidity.
Skip

Quoting sugarjoe:

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Quoting bobb:

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All I know is I am a friend of a woman who lives in an apartment with a so called gate that will keep unauthorized  people out. When a man broke into her apartment and told her at gunpoint to remove her clothes or he would kill her. What he did not know is she had a concealed gun carry permit. So as she undressed she was able to get her gun, and she shot first. (Much Like Han Solo.) While he was not killed he ran away leaving a trail of blood. After she called 911 the police were able to follow him, and he was arrested.Turns out he was responsible for over 6 rapes in the area. He was also on parole, and the law forbade him  to have a gun.

So to sum it up, a criminal got an illegal gun, but was stopped by a law abiding citizen.

The old saying, "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." has rung true to me for awhile.

I also love a bumber sticker I once saw, "Politicians fear a armed populace." The amendment was written after the British army confiscated the guns of colonists.

I am not a gun owner as I have a history of depression, but feel safer living nest to an retired marine who does.

Oh the bloodbath antigun folks claimed would happen when the concealed law was passed have been proven wrong. Murder & Rape in my city has gone down.

Bobb

MYTH: Keeping guns in the home increases personal protection.
TRUTH: Obviously, self defense is not a good argument against gun control since those who own firearms are actually more likely to be victims of homicide. Two studies published in The New England Journal of Medicine revealed that keeping a gun in the home increases the risk of both suicide and homicide. Keeping a gun in the home makes it 2.7 times more likely that someone will be a victim of homicide in your home (in almost all cases the victim is either related to or intimately acquainted with the murderer) and 4.8 times more likely that someone will commit suicide. Guns make it more likely that a suicide attempt will be successful than if other means were used such as sleeping pills.

Anyone who has taken a college level stats class knows that correlation doesn't prove causation.  What was the margin of error?  Who was the subject group?  Who were the control?  Tere are many other questions we can ask.

Quoting eagle61397:

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As an Eagle Scout (hence my screen name) I was trained in the scouts on how to take care of fire arms and how to clean them and I've done my share of target practice, but no hunting. I also can't stand groups like the NRA. I believe that people do have the right of protecting themselves in anyway they can, including the use of fire arms, but the thing that gets me about the NRA is that they are against any legislation on banning any type of assault weapons. I don't have a problem owning shotguns, pistols, etc... I can only see the people using assault weapons to commit crimes and not for hunting. I do know that with a ban that people would find a way to get the guns, but that is always going to happen, just the way it is with drugs.  I just think the NRA needs to get its act together and possibly work with the government and find a solution that works for the both of them, while keeping the streets safe.

While I agree on your issue with assault weapons, which are banned here in California BTW, as well as high-capacity magazines for handguns, I must defend the NRA. Without the support of the NRA and it's members, myself among them, we, as US citizens, would have lost our freedom to bear arms many years ago by the liberal left and anti-gun coalitions.

Quoting GSyren:

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It's not the criminals that worry me about the US gun laws, it's the "law abiding citizens". How many people have been shot by mistake because someone thought they were intruders? People have even shot their own kids, for goodness sake!

Bobb's story seems to me somewhat akin to the arguments against using seat belts because you can get trapped in a burning car. Yes, there are times when seat belt can kill you, but you are way more likely to be saved by your seat belt than be killed by it.

By the same token, yes, there are times when having a handgun might save you, but it's far more likely to cause a disaster.

To those pooh-poohing sugerjoe's post, are you saying that those studies published in The New England Journal of Medicine are wrong, and if so, what do you base that on?

I think you need to reread the post.  He simply included the WHOLE conclusion, instead of the snippet posted by the original poster.