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Invelos Forums->General: General Discussion |
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 Prop 8 (Locked) |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
It is the job of the courts to over-rule the will of the people when that will is unconstitutional. In this case, it was, and the court ruled properly. That is why Prop 8 is a Constitutional Amendment rather than a law.
The state may have ruled, but is not unconstitutional until the Supreme Court either refuses to hear the case or rules it unconstitutional itself. Um, it was a state law. It is the job of the state Supreme Court to decide whether or not something is unconstitutional in that state. Since they did, that was the end of it. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
I never said it doesn't occur. Just because it happens in rare cases in nature, does not make it natural, it only means that it happens rarely. The natural order of things is to pair males with females by a vast majority of natural pairings. That is precisely the way anatomy was designed (or evolved if you prefer). There is a very good reason for this which I'm sure I do not have to explain!
Who said anything about 'rare' cases? From my research, it seems that it is quite common. As I said, and you seem to have ignored, for some species it is the rule rather than the exception.
Take the walrus as an example, the males often form homosexual pair bonds and will have sex with each other when it is not mating season.
Yet another example, in animals where 'bachelor groups' form...such as bison, gazelles, antelope, sage grouse and Guinean cocks-of-the-rock...it is not uncommon for same sex pair bonds to form.
And yet another example, the bonobo chimpanzees...at least those that have been observed...are 100% bisexual.
I can go on and on, if you like, but I shouldn't have to. The point remains the same. The notion that homosexuality is unnatural, is simply a myth. It is quite common in nature which, by definition, makes it natural. How many of those animals are married? Trying to compare animal bonding with human marriage is an exercise in absurdity. Animals do not think. They are driven almost entirely by instinct/reflex. Survival foremost. Did it ever occur to you that all this "bonding" you refer to has little if anything to do with animal "homosexuality" and everything to do with survival? | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: June 3, 2007 | | Posts: 333 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Yeah, that one's straight from the playbook!  And which playbook would that be Hal? O_o Quoting hal9g: Quote:
No one is abridging their privileges or immunities. They can get married just like anyone else. To someone of the opposite sex. Er... Equal protection clause? Why should someone be forced to marry (or denied the right to) based on the gender of the proposed spouse? C'mon Hal, do you honestly believe that they love their intended any less? You can have whatever reservations you want about the fate of their soul, but do you really cheapen their relationships to the level of the the drive through weddings in Vegas that heterosexual couples can enjoy? Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Try to tell that to the judges here in Georgia! That's why we have the SC. They beat it into those who just don't get it. Anti-homosexual laws are done in the US. It's over. The only remaining issue is for them to have the rights the rest of us have. It will happen. Maybe not soon, but it's a done deal. The only question is can we comport ourselves through this debate in a way our descendents will not condemn us for. To me this is a serious question. I took serious issues with my grandmothers racist views and homophobia is going the same way. (You can call it whatever you want, but when kids are growing up with loving homosexual couples in the public eye it's hard to frame it any other way.) A gentle word that you disapprove and the basis for your beliefs wll get you much farther than a "just is" IMO. |
| | Registered: June 3, 2007 | | Posts: 333 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
The state may have ruled, but is not unconstitutional until the Supreme Court either refuses to hear the case or rules it unconstitutional itself. Er... no. It's unconsitutional under California law. The SC doesn't get a say unless it conflicts and says that gay mariage is unconstitutional under US law. and that's not going to happen... |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Snark: Quote:
And their purpose is not to impose a religious foundation, but because any society based on the idea that murder or theft is Ok cannot function. The government steals from me every two weeks. They forcibly take money out of my paycheck against my will. So it all depends on whose ox is being gored! | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
How many of those animals are married?
Trying to compare animal bonding with human marriage is an exercise in absurdity. Who said anything about marriage? You said, and I quote, "I believe that homosexual activity is both unnatural and immoral; and I am far from alone." My first post on this was to counter your claim that homosexual activity is unnatural. I don't know how you could have twisted it to mean anything else. Quote:
Animals do not think. They are driven almost entirely by instinct/reflex. Survival foremost. Did it ever occur to you that all this "bonding" you refer to has little if anything to do with animal "homosexuality" and everything to do with survival? It is bonding AND sex...or did you miss that part?  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Snark: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
The state may have ruled, but is not unconstitutional until the Supreme Court either refuses to hear the case or rules it unconstitutional itself.
Er... no. It's unconsitutional under California law. The SC doesn't get a say unless it conflicts and says that gay mariage is unconstitutional under US law. and that's not going to happen... Perhaps you are unaware of the fact that the Supreme Court has the power to overrule State Law that it deems to be Unconstitutional meaning against the Federal Constitution regardless of what the State constitution may say? Currently it is has only been tested for constitutionality under the California constitution! | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: June 3, 2007 | | Posts: 333 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
The government steals from me every two weeks. They forcibly take money out of my paycheck against my will.
So it all depends on whose ox is being gored! Errr... The 16th ammendment...? ( The Congress shall have power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises etc...) It's a nice bit of spin... but it doesn't have a lot to do with the discussion at hand. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Perhaps you are unaware of the fact that the Supreme Court has the power to overrule State Law that it deems to be Unconstitutional meaning against the Federal Constitution regardless of what the State constitution may say? Currently it is has only been tested for constitutionality under the California constitution! True, but it has already been ruled unconstitutional under the California Constitution. There is nothing for the USSC to overrule here. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
It is bonding AND sex...or did you miss that part? Apparently I did, since the majority of your post spoke to "bonding" and not homosexual activity between said animals. Homosexual bonding is not he same as homosexual sex. "Male bonding" among humans is quite common also but has nothing to do with the topic at hand any more than "male bonding" among animals. Through simple math, it is apparent that far more animals that sport both sexes, bond heterosexually. If that were not true, they would die off as a species, unless the few heteros were extremely prolific. Aberrations in nature can be found to support anything. That doesn't make them natural, only that they exist. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: June 3, 2007 | | Posts: 333 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Perhaps you are unaware of the fact that the Supreme Court has the power to overrule State Law that it deems to be Unconstitutional meaning against the Federal Constitution regardless of what the State constitution may say? Currently it is has only been tested for constitutionality under the California constitution! Er... No... I'm not unaware... The SC would have to find a constitutional while why gay marriage is illegal under the constitution. Not gonna happen... As it stands now there is no 'test' where there is a measurable possibility where the SC will dump on state law. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Perhaps you are unaware of the fact that the Supreme Court has the power to overrule State Law that it deems to be Unconstitutional meaning against the Federal Constitution regardless of what the State constitution may say? Currently it is has only been tested for constitutionality under the California constitution!
True, but it has already been ruled unconstitutional under the California Constitution. There is nothing for the USSC to overrule here. I'm glad to know that you have the legal where-wit-all to make this judgment. Be sure to call Justice Roberts and provide him with your brief so that when it gets to the Supreme Court, he will not have to worry his little mind about this matter! | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Through simple math, it is apparent that far more animals that sport both sexes, bond heterosexually. If that were not true, they would die off as a species, unless the few heteros were extremely prolific.
Aberrations in nature can be found to support anything. That doesn't make them natural, only that they exist. You must have also missed the part where I said that most, though not all, will suspend that homosexual behavior during mating season. Once mating season is over, they return to their homosexual activities. As I said, it is not an aberration, it is quite common. Since you refuse to do the research yourself, I don't know how we can continue with an intelligent discussion. You are stating opinions while I am stating findings based on research.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
I'm glad to know that you have the legal where-wit-all to make this judgment. Be sure to call Justice Roberts and provide him with your brief so that when it gets to the Supreme Court, he will not have to worry his little mind about this matter! If you are going to discuss this issue, at least know the facts. Prop 22, which is the law that made gay marriage illegal in California, was ruled unconstitutional...by the California Supreme Court...under the Equal Protection Clause of the California State Constitution. It will not get to the Supreme Court. It will not be seen by Justice Roberts. Prop 8, on the other hand, is a proposed Amendment to the California Constitution. If passed, I am quite sure it will be heard by the USSC. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
I'm glad to know that you have the legal where-wit-all to make this judgment. Be sure to call Justice Roberts and provide him with your brief so that when it gets to the Supreme Court, he will not have to worry his little mind about this matter!
If you are going to discuss this issue, at least know the facts. Prop 22, which is the law that made gay marriage illegal in California, was ruled unconstitutional...by the California Supreme Court...under the Equal Protection Clause of the California State Constitution. It will not get to the Supreme Court. It will not be seen by Justice Roberts.
Prop 8, on the other hand, is a proposed Amendment to the California Constitution. If passed, I am quite sure it will be heard by the USSC. I do believe that Prop 8 is the topic of this discussion and is precisely what I was talking about! As I understand it, Prop 8 is to Amend the California Constitution. Please correct me if I have that wrong! | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Through simple math, it is apparent that far more animals that sport both sexes, bond heterosexually. If that were not true, they would die off as a species, unless the few heteros were extremely prolific.
Aberrations in nature can be found to support anything. That doesn't make them natural, only that they exist.
You must have also missed the part where I said that most, though not all, will suspend that homosexual behavior during mating season. Once mating season is over, they return to their homosexual activities. As I said, it is not an aberration, it is quite common.
Since you refuse to do the research yourself, I don't know how we can continue with an intelligent discussion. You are stating opinions while I am stating findings based on research. Of the 2+ million known species in the world, you cite a few examples. Hardly a convincing argument that it is "common". | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
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