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Invelos Forums->General: General Discussion |
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| Registered: March 20, 2007 |  Posts: 262 |
| | Posted: | | | | Snark,
You're so convinced in the utter righteousness of your views to the point where you demean and belittle those that disagree as living in the past. Whatever the issue likening your opponents to idiots who simply don't understand how brilliant and insightful you are is arrogrant in the extreme.
I don't see the point of your arguing these issues with us if you're on a higher level of brilliance. How you can you stand to live amongst us peons?
Here's an idea leave the debates on these issues to us little people and take your throne in your ivory tower of righteousness. I prefer communicating with those that can debate the merits of their position without belittling and demeaning others. Which is all that you and many of your cohorts seem capable of doing.
This illusion you suffer from that somehow you can see the future and know you are going to be seen as an enlightened bright light amongst us confused idiots in 20 years must be very soothing for you.
Brian |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | | Posts: 262 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus: Quote:
This is not discrimination. This is punishment for doing something illegal. As long as they were given due process, it is within the fourteenth amendment to do. Again, last time I checked, being gay isn't illegal. Sorry, but this argument falls flat. In this cases someone is being denied what is to others a fundamental right - to vote. The critical issue here is that under certain circumstances discrimination is permitted. You can't vote at age 17 would be an example of someone being discriminated against without having comitted a crime. In this case the basis is that you are considered a child for voting right if you are less than 18 -- the DEFINITION of child being set by the state. In other words it is no different than the state defining marriage as a union between a man and a woman. The state also has the authority to decide who can practice law and medicine and deny that to someone who doesn't meet the criterion defined by the state of being qualified. The issue also applies to people being denied the right to marry someone of the same sex. There is no distinction between gay marriage, incestous marriage, and bigamy using your crtieria -- or for that matter the right to engage in bestiality. Snark posits animal cruelty laws could prohibit that but that is a stretch. What about public nudity? Aren't there nudists who believe in a right to prance around in the birthday suits? On what basis would we deny them their right to "equal protection"? Brian |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Of the 2+ million known species in the world, you cite a few examples.
Hardly a convincing argument that it is "common". How many did you want me to cite? 10? 100? 1000? There is no way that I am going to cite every single example...there simply isn't room or time enough to do that. As I said, you don't have to take my word for it, research it yourself. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | | Posts: 262 |
| | Posted: | | | | an unborn child is not a "person" and can be killed and dumped in a trash bin
Unicus you also ignored the above example -- if the state has the power to decide who is a person and take away their right to even live how can the state not have the power to regulate marriage. I have a hard time believing that the right to marry trumps the right to life using your criteria. The reality is that the equal protection clause is not absolute just as the right to free speech or religion is not absolute. The equal protection clause has a long history of being strongly applied against laws that discriminate based on certain categories - in particular race and gender.
Simply quoting the language of the constitution does not make your interpretation valid. The state created the institution of marriage it is under no obligation to extend it to same sex couples.
Brian | | | | Last edited: by bbursiek |
| | Registered: June 3, 2007 | | Posts: 333 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting bbursiek: Quote:
Snark,
You're so convinced in the utter righteousness of your views to the point where you demean and belittle those that disagree as living in the past. Whatever the issue likening your opponents to idiots who simply don't understand how brilliant and insightful you are is arrogrant in the extreme.
I don't see the point of your arguing these issues with us if you're on a higher level of brilliance. How you can you stand to live amongst us peons?
Here's an idea leave the debates on these issues to us little people and take your throne in your ivory tower of righteousness. I prefer communicating with those that can debate the merits of their position without belittling and demeaning others. Which is all that you and many of your cohorts seem capable of doing.
This illusion you suffer from that somehow you can see the future and know you are going to be seen as an enlightened bright light amongst us confused idiots in 20 years must be very soothing for you.
Brian Wowser Brian... I dunno what to say. I've been more than careful to keep my comments confined to my own personal opinion, NOT the poster. If you feel I've done otherwise then the red arrow is up and to the right. Is there any particular reason I should not express my opinion? I have no idea what your problem is with my posts, but frankly I don't much care. If you disagree with my reasoning then by all means post a rebuttal. But if all you've got is a general swipe at me on a personal level then please forgive me if I'm not impressed. I am as much entitled to my own beliefs as you are to yours. If you can't defend yours on their own merit then that's not my problem. As far as the future goes... It doesn't take a fortune teller to see that the scales are tipping in terms of the public view of homsexuality. I have no issue with you Brian, but I must say I am disappointed that the discussion appears not to be on the merits of the respective posititiions but the people involved...  |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Of the 2+ million known species in the world, you cite a few examples.
Hardly a convincing argument that it is "common".
How many did you want me to cite? 10? 100? 1000? There is no way that I am going to cite every single example...there simply isn't room or time enough to do that. As I said, you don't have to take my word for it, research it yourself. You claimed it was "common". All you have to do, based on the number of species that exist is prove that your statement holds merit. Based on your "proof" so far, you fall slightly short in my definition of "common". | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting bbursiek: Quote:
In this cases someone is being denied what is to others a fundamental right - to vote. The critical issue here is that under certain circumstances discrimination is permitted. You can't vote at age 17 would be an example of someone being discriminated against without having comitted a crime. This is the same as contract law. Minors are denied this right because they are not old enough to make an informed decision. To claim that is the same as denying a felon certain rights makes no sense. Quote:
In this case the basis is that you are considered a child for voting right if you are less than 18 -- the DEFINITION of child being set by the state. In other words it is no different than the state defining marriage as a union between a man and a woman. The state also has the authority to decide who can practice law and medicine and deny that to someone who doesn't meet the criterion defined by the state of being qualified.
The issue also applies to people being denied the right to marry someone of the same sex. Oh please. Minors are being protected from people who might take advantage of them because of their lack of maturity. The state requires doctors and lawyers to meet certain criterion in order to protect the public. To equate that with two adults deciding that they want to be married is just silly. Who are you protecting them from? Quote:
There is no distinction between gay marriage, incestous marriage, and bigamy using your crtieria -- or for that matter the right to engage in bestiality. Snark posits animal cruelty laws could prohibit that but that is a stretch. To equate two people wanting to get married with bestiality is idiotic. Animals can't make the choice to have sex with a human. But you go right ahead with your assinine comparisons. Quote:
What about public nudity? Aren't there nudists who believe in a right to prance around in the birthday suits? On what basis would we deny them their right to "equal protection"? Once again, please. Their right to parade around nude violates my right to not see them nude. You rights end when they infringe on my rights. Please tell me how gay marriage infringes on your rights. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting bbursiek: Quote:
an unborn child is not a "person" and can be killed and dumped in a trash bin
Unicus you also ignored the above example -- if the state has the power to decide who is a person and take away their right to even live how can the state not have the power to regulate marriage. I have a hard time believing that the right to marry trumps the right to life using your criteria. Maybe, just maybe, I ignored it because I don't believe the state has that power. Your assumption that I think it does is based on what exactly? Quote:
The reality is that the equal protection clause is not absolute just as the right to free speech or religion is not absolute. The equal protection clause has a long history of being strongly applied against laws that discriminate based on certain categories - in particular race and gender.
Simply quoting the language of the constitution does not make your interpretation valid. The state created the institution of marriage it is under no obligation to extend it to same sex couples. The minute they made it a legal institution, they were obliged to extend it to every citizen of the country. Simply saying it isn't so doesn't make your opinion valid. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
You claimed it was "common".
All you have to do, based on the number of species that exist is prove that your statement holds merit. Yes, I claimed it was common and gave a few examples. If those weren't enough for you, such is life. Quote:
Based on your "proof" so far, you fall slightly short in my definition of "common". Yea, I doubt very seriously that it has anything to do with my proof. Based on your posts so far, no proof would be enough for you. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting bbursiek
Quote:
I guess "marriage" between a 25 year old and a 12 year old is also possible in your world.
As I said, marriage is a legal contract between two people. Minors do not have the 'legal capacity' to make contracts. So no, in my world, it is not possible. Nice try though. And who exactly defined what "legal capacity" is. Oh, yeah...the state. They passed a law that in essence said that they have the power to restrict and/or withold the rights of any person who has not reached the age of "legal capacity". Has that 12-year-year old broken some law, perchance? I don't think so. And, a little closer to home. The state has the perfect right to deny the issuance of a driver's license to a 12-year-old. Are they abridging the rights of that 12-year-old who may be perfectly able to drive a car with absolutely no problems whatsoever. I've seen a whole lot of 85-yr-olds on the road that scare me a lot more than a 12-year-old would. Or how about the 17-year-old who's rights are abridged when he is told by the liquor store owner that he cannot buy that pint of Absolut! Yes it is illegal for him to buy it....but only because the state passed a law making it illegal for specific groups of people. As Brian so correctly asserts, States have a perfect right and in many cases an obligation to pass laws that discriminate against specific groups by defining privileges in a very specific way. It would be interesting to see a 12-year-old argue a case before the US Supreme Court that his rights were wrongfully infringed upon because the State of California would not allow him to drive on the public roads. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
You claimed it was "common".
All you have to do, based on the number of species that exist is prove that your statement holds merit.
Yes, I claimed it was common and gave a few examples. If those weren't enough for you, such is life.
Quote:
Based on your "proof" so far, you fall slightly short in my definition of "common".
Yea, I doubt very seriously that it has anything to do with my proof. Based on your posts so far, no proof would be enough for you. OK, let's see if we can define the term "common". 5 or 6 in 2 million just doesn't get it for me. What'd'ya think? | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
And who exactly defined what "legal capacity" is. Oh, yeah...the state. They passed a law that in essence said that they have the power to restrict and/or withold the rights of any person who has not reached the age of "legal capacity".
(...)
Quite correct...a 12 year old does not have the mental faculties required to make 'adult' decisions. That is why we have laws to protect them. Trying to equate that with gay marriage is just silly...unless, of course, you are trying to say they don't have the mental faculties required to made that decision.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
And who exactly defined what "legal capacity" is. Oh, yeah...the state. They passed a law that in essence said that they have the power to restrict and/or withold the rights of any person who has not reached the age of "legal capacity".
(...)
Quite correct...a 12 year old does not have the mental faculties required to make 'adult' decisions. That is why we have laws to protect them. Trying to equate that with gay marriage is just silly...unless, of course, you are trying to say they don't have the mental faculties required to made that decision. The argument is that the State has a right to impose any restrictions that it deems reasonable on a persons rights under the 14th amendment. How about a 15 1/2 year old trying to get a drivers license. Kids mature at different ages. Lots of 15 1/2 year olds are just as "mentally competent" as some 18-year-olds (especially females). Age discrimination is actually a protected class. So how do they get away with it? Which just demonstrates that States have a right to restrict privileges regardless of the 14th Amendment. You can call it silly all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that 14th Amendment rights are abridged all the time...quite legally. As I stated earlier, no one is saying they cannot get married in California. They simply have to meet the criteria set forth by the State just exactly the same way people have to meet the criteria for a driver's license, a hunting license or practically any other license. As recently as 1900, doctors did not have to have a college degree. The State has the right to regulate these privileges in any way they see fit, unless deemed unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
OK, let's see if we can define the term "common". 5 or 6 in 2 million just doesn't get it for me.
What'd'ya think? These are just the mammals who have exhibited homosexual behavior. I can include the list of birds if this isn't enough for you. I hope it is as my fingers are a little tired at the moment.  African Buffalo, African Elephant, Agile Wallaby, Amazon River Dolphin, American Bison, Antelope, Asian Elephant, Asiatic Lion, Asiatic Mouflon, Atlantic Spotted Dolphin, Australian Sea Lion, Barasingha, Barbary Sheep, Beluga, Bharal, Bighorn Sheep, Black Bear, Blackbuck, Black-footed Rock Wallaby, Black-tailed Deer, Bonnet Macaque, Bonobo, Bottlenose Dolphin, Bowhead Whale, Brazilian Guinea Pig, Bridled Dolphin, Brown Bear, Brown Capuchin, Brown Long-eared Bat, Brown Rat, Buffalo, Caribou, Cat (domestic), Cattle (domestic), Cheetah, Collared Peccary, Commerson's Dolphin, Common Brushtail Possum, Common Chimpanzee, Common Dolphin, Common Marmoset, Common Pipistrelle, Common Raccoon, Common Tree Shrew, Cotton-top Tamarin, Crab-eating Macaque, Crested Black Macaque, Cui, Dall's Sheep, Daubenton's Bat, Dog (domestic), Doria's Tree Kangaroo, Dugong, Dwarf Cavy, Dwarf Mongoose, Eastern Cottontail Rabbit, Eastern Grey Kangaroo, Elk, Euro (a subspecies of wallaroo), European Bison, Fallow Deer, False Killer Whale, Fat-tailed Dunnart, Fin Whale, Fox, Gazelle, Gelada Baboon, Giraffe, Goat (Domestic), Golden Monkey, Gorilla, Grant's Gazelle, Grey-headed Flying Fox, Grey Seal, Grey squirrel, Grey Whale, Grey Wolf, Grizzly Bear, Guinea Pig (Domestic), Hamadryas Baboon, Hamster (Domestic), Hanuman Langur, Harbor Porpoise, Harbor Seal, Himalayan Tahr, Hoary Marmot, Horse (domestic), Indian Fruit Bat, Indian Muntjac, Indian Rhinoceros, Japanese Macaque, Javelina, Kangaroo Rat, Killer Whale, Koala, Kob, Larga Seal, Least Chipmunk, Lechwe, Lesser Bushbaby, Lion, Lion-tailed Macaque, Lion Tamarin, Little Brown Bat, Livingstone's Fruit Bat, Long-eared Hedgehog, Long-footed Tree Shrew, Macaque, Markhor, Marten, Matschie's Tree Kangaroo, Moco, Mohol Galago, Moor Macaque, Moose, Mountain Goat, Mountain Tree Shrew, Mountain Zebra, Mouse (domestic), Moustached Tamarin, Mule Deer, Musk-ox, Natterer's Bat, New Zealand Sea Lion, Nilgiri Langur, Noctule, North American Porcupine, Northern Elephant Seal, Northern Fur Seal, Northern Quoll, Olympic Marmot, Orangutan, Orca, Pacific Striped Dolphin, Patas Monkey, Pere David's Deer, Pig (Domestic), Pig-tailed Macaque, Plains Zebra, Polar Bear, Pretty-faced Wallaby, Proboscis Monkey, Pronghorn, Przewalski's Horse, Puku, Quokka, Rabbit, Raccoon Dog, Red Deer, Red Fox, Red Kangaroo, Red-necked Wallaby, Red Squirrel, Reeves's Muntjac, Reindeer, Rhesus Macaque, Right Whale, Rock Cavy, Rodrigues Fruit Bat, Roe Deer, Rufous Bettong, Rufous-naped Tamarin, Sea Otter, Serotine Bat, Sheep (Domestic), Siamang, Sika Deer, Slender Tree Shrew, Sooty Mangabey, Sperm Whale, Spinifex Hopping Mouse, Spinner Dolphin, Spotted Hyena, Spotted Seal, Squirrel Monkey, Striped Dolphin, Stuart's Marsupial Mouse, Stumptail Macaque, Swamp Deer, Swamp Wallaby, Takhi, Talapoin, Tammar Wallaby, Tasmanian Devil, Tasmanian Rat Kangaroo, Thinhorn Sheep, Thomson's Gazelle, Tiger, Tonkean Macaque, Tucuxi, Urial, Vampire Bat, Verreaux's Sifaka, Vervet, Vicuna, Walrus, Wapiti, Warthog, Waterbuck, Water Buffalo, Weeper Capuchin, Western Grey Kangaroo, West Indian Manatee, Whiptail Wallaby, White-faced Capuchin, White-fronted Capuchin, White-handed Gibbon, White-lipped Peccary, White-tailed Deer, Wild Cavy, Wild Goat, Wisent, Yellow-footed Rock Wallaby, Yellow-toothed Cavy. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
And who exactly defined what "legal capacity" is. Oh, yeah...the state. They passed a law that in essence said that they have the power to restrict and/or withold the rights of any person who has not reached the age of "legal capacity".
(...)
Quite correct...a 12 year old does not have the mental faculties required to make 'adult' decisions. That is why we have laws to protect them. Trying to equate that with gay marriage is just silly...unless, of course, you are trying to say they don't have the mental faculties required to made that decision. You conveniently ignore the rest of that post. Why would that be? | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
You conveniently ignore the rest of that post.
Why would that be? I didn't ignore the rest of the post. All your examples dealt with minors. The same argument applies to each one...or weren't you able to see that? | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
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Invelos Forums->General: General Discussion |
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